[pstuart]

The same NYTimes that shilled the Iraq War for Bush?

I have no party affiliation but vote Dem because I consider them to be the lesser of two evils. There's plenty to not like.

I'm not a fan in general of Biden but have been less disappointed then I expected to be (and sometimes more). I could enumerate many of his failings (e.g., Hunter Biden's job was corrupt).

I find it impossible to discuss anything negative about Trump with his supporters -- it's effectively a cult. I know I'll get downvotes for it but it's true, and incredibly frustrating. There's no opportunity to find consensus -- and no indication this will ever change.

[coolso]

> The same NYTimes that shilled the Iraq War for Bush?

Organizations can’t change at all within 20 years? Democrats have changed just as much in general. 3/4 of the stuff the blue check marks talk about on Twitter wasn’t even mentioned in passing in the early 00s.

[pstuart]

I think the Overton Window has shifted to the right.

I've been explicit in saying that I am not a fan of the Democratic party. They are not above reproach.

What's interesting is I never hear any complaints about the GOP from those on the right. Nada. Nothing. This is not whataboutism, it's that these complaints read as tribal warfare, not a search for the common good.

[AnimalMuppet]

Shifted to the right? Compared to when?

[pstuart]

Yeah, I understand some confusion there. Perhaps it's getting wider. On the right side it was White Nationalism coming out of the shadows. The politicization of vaccines (which prior to covid was more the domain of soccer moms (falsely) worried about autism.

Sure on the left you've got LGBQTXYZ rights but that's been a thing for some time. I'm kinda drawing a blank here so feel free to share.

This divide is no organic accident -- it's being actively promoted. Team Red vs. Team Blue is a master stroke in ye olde divide and conquer game.

[AnimalMuppet]

"White Fragility" seems to me like the left edge of the window clearly moving left.

But I agree with you on two points. First, the Overton Window is getting wider. In fact, I think it's worse. It got stretched so far that it shattered.

Second, I agree that someone (or several someones) are playing divide and conquer, and they are not our friends - of either side. We're being divided, and the next step is coming...

[pstuart]

Could you elucidate on the "White Fragility"? I do think that's an issue but we may have differing interpretations of it.

And thank you for your thoughtful reply. I'm not here to argue or score points -- I genuinely want to understand the thinking that happens outside my box.

[joenot443]

Do you find it's easy to discuss anything positive about Trump with his vehement haters? Would you not describe the colloquially defined "Trump Derangement Syndrome" behavior to be somewhat cult-like as well?

[pstuart]

There's not much positive in my book. I think highlighting the manufacturing surrender to China was good to point out but not impressed by the handling of it.

He did commute the sentence of a woman wrongfully incarcerated (after urging by a Kardashian).

He also did advocate for ending the War in Afghanistan but, again, but not handled in a manner that I would applaud.

Cult-like implies unquestioning devotion. You know the part where he said he could shoot somebody on 5th avenue and not lose any votes? That was shocking to me (and others). More shocking was that he was right.

Any sort of "derangement" on my part or others is shock at how his words and actions are acceptable. I take no pleasure in it (quite the opposite). I wish I could be provided evidence that all of these things are not true -- I don't want to be aghast but the evidence I have at hand but I guess I'm just a pussy, right?

Again, I abhor partisan politics but am forced to align with the side that I find least contemptible.

[_-david-_]

>I find it impossible to discuss anything negative about Trump with his supporters

You can be negative about Trump pretty much everywhere and nobody would bat an eye. You can even spew lies like him peeing on proustites and it will be on the news nonstop for years.

Many people who like Trump see that sort of cultish behavior against him and turn around and defend Trump on everything. If people were more reasonable with their negativity of Trump, I have no doubt most Trump supporters would admit Trump's flaws.

[pstuart]

Cultish is projection. I and those I know do not base our identities on hating him. Its shock and dismay -- there's zero pleasure or satisfaction in this.

> If people were more reasonable with their negativity of Trump, I have no doubt most Trump supporters would admit Trump's flaws.

Prove it. In this thread I've done my best to be as reasonable as can be. I've acknowledged the few things I think he did that weren't bad. I've been clear that Joe Biden and the Dem party is not above reproach.

  * Biden's son's position was a old school corruption (buying favor).
  * The wind-down of Afghanistan was poorly executed (really the failure of military leadership but the buck stops with him).
  * Biden promised to decriminalize cannabis at the federal level and shows no signs of acting on that.
  * Biden has done nothing to address immigration (but the biggest solution is to decriminalize *all* drugs and that ain't gonna fly).

So let's hear what disappoints you about Trump.

[_-david-_]

>Cultish is projection. I and those I know do not base our identities on hating him

I didn't mean to suggest you do that, but there are some people I have talked with (mostly online, but a few in person) who do basically base their identity on hating Trump.

I also know some people who base their identity on their love of Trump.

There is a cult of personality on both sides of this. I fully believe Trump likes it and takes the whole all publicity is good publicity to an extreme.

>Prove it.

I don't think it is possible since Trump has been heavily criticized for the last 6 years (or however long). He didn't really have followers prior to this. I don't recall ever seeing anybody defending or criticizing Trump on everything 10 years ago.

What I am basing it on is other politicians. When people don't treat politicians as poorly as Trump was treated, people tend to acknowledge more flaws. My statement was anecdotal not some sort of study assessing this. I should have made it more clear.

> So let's hear what disappoints you about Trump

1. The way he speaks (not his inflection, but what he says)

2. He didn't really accomplish anything. Just a tax cut and a couple mediocre judges?

3. The people he surrounded himself with. (I don't fully blame him on this. My understanding is some better people refused to work with Trump so he had to go with worse people.)

4. Nepotism (probably could be combined with #3)

[pstuart]

Thank you. Dialog is good.

I don't want to hate Trump, as I think hate is toxic, but I'm aghast at what he has done and enabled. I'm also in the camp that thinks that if the dems lose control in 2024 it will be the end of democracy. I wish that were hyperbole.

Those on the left and right have more in common than with the elites, and that's the plan. But you can find "I'd rather be Russian than Democrat" shirts proudly worn at his rallies.

There is hate being preached, and it's incredibly effective. This is why I've voiced my concerns about "free speech" here before (and it's never been well received, but hey I got to say it!).

I could go on and on but I'll spare you. Again, thank you for engaging.