[_-david-_]

>I find it impossible to discuss anything negative about Trump with his supporters

You can be negative about Trump pretty much everywhere and nobody would bat an eye. You can even spew lies like him peeing on proustites and it will be on the news nonstop for years.

Many people who like Trump see that sort of cultish behavior against him and turn around and defend Trump on everything. If people were more reasonable with their negativity of Trump, I have no doubt most Trump supporters would admit Trump's flaws.

[pstuart]

Cultish is projection. I and those I know do not base our identities on hating him. Its shock and dismay -- there's zero pleasure or satisfaction in this.

> If people were more reasonable with their negativity of Trump, I have no doubt most Trump supporters would admit Trump's flaws.

Prove it. In this thread I've done my best to be as reasonable as can be. I've acknowledged the few things I think he did that weren't bad. I've been clear that Joe Biden and the Dem party is not above reproach.

  * Biden's son's position was a old school corruption (buying favor).
  * The wind-down of Afghanistan was poorly executed (really the failure of military leadership but the buck stops with him).
  * Biden promised to decriminalize cannabis at the federal level and shows no signs of acting on that.
  * Biden has done nothing to address immigration (but the biggest solution is to decriminalize *all* drugs and that ain't gonna fly).

So let's hear what disappoints you about Trump.

[_-david-_]

>Cultish is projection. I and those I know do not base our identities on hating him

I didn't mean to suggest you do that, but there are some people I have talked with (mostly online, but a few in person) who do basically base their identity on hating Trump.

I also know some people who base their identity on their love of Trump.

There is a cult of personality on both sides of this. I fully believe Trump likes it and takes the whole all publicity is good publicity to an extreme.

>Prove it.

I don't think it is possible since Trump has been heavily criticized for the last 6 years (or however long). He didn't really have followers prior to this. I don't recall ever seeing anybody defending or criticizing Trump on everything 10 years ago.

What I am basing it on is other politicians. When people don't treat politicians as poorly as Trump was treated, people tend to acknowledge more flaws. My statement was anecdotal not some sort of study assessing this. I should have made it more clear.

> So let's hear what disappoints you about Trump

1. The way he speaks (not his inflection, but what he says)

2. He didn't really accomplish anything. Just a tax cut and a couple mediocre judges?

3. The people he surrounded himself with. (I don't fully blame him on this. My understanding is some better people refused to work with Trump so he had to go with worse people.)

4. Nepotism (probably could be combined with #3)

[pstuart]

Thank you. Dialog is good.

I don't want to hate Trump, as I think hate is toxic, but I'm aghast at what he has done and enabled. I'm also in the camp that thinks that if the dems lose control in 2024 it will be the end of democracy. I wish that were hyperbole.

Those on the left and right have more in common than with the elites, and that's the plan. But you can find "I'd rather be Russian than Democrat" shirts proudly worn at his rallies.

There is hate being preached, and it's incredibly effective. This is why I've voiced my concerns about "free speech" here before (and it's never been well received, but hey I got to say it!).

I could go on and on but I'll spare you. Again, thank you for engaging.