[MrGando]

Have to chime-in here as a piano player since age 7 (so been going for ~28 now), who about 2 years ago got very serious about Jazz.

I have stumbled across this book many times, I have read it. It's the single most controversial book that I've read about piano technique and playing that I've found.

The author, is not even a player himself (!!!). There's a great summary of reviews about the book here (https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=38247.0), if you're starting into piano, stay away, get a decent teacher.

[revolvingocelot]

I can't help but agree. I've been playing piano since childhood too, though in a desultory, non-Conservatory way. It's been great fun reading through this comment section and seeing Piano HN, but I'm really surprised that this is the first comment that acknowledges the skub-nature [0] of the book, and that the author doesn't actually play piano but in fact armchair-QBs it via observation and discussion with his two daughters' piano teacher.

That's not to say that he doesn't have any interesting insights, but IMO this is an entirely inappropriate book for an ab initio beginner. The value of his insights comes from another perspective on piano pedagogy, but it's an untrained one; better to learn the ropes as they're commonly understood before you seek the guy who's all about an unorthodox presentation of them.

At the bare minimum, get a teacher so you can learn how to hold your hands.

[0] https://pbfcomics.com/comics/skub/

[MrGando]

There's a specific thing I always remember about this book, which is that the author recommends the "thumb over" technique for scales. I would never, ever suggest a beginner to approach scales like that. Thumb rotation is super important to absorb and master. Of course, when you go for fast scales you do a "thumb over" which is not really that, but instead of the thumb rotation, you reposition your whole hand using your arm to keep going upwards (from reading the book, it feels like the author doesn't understand that, because he probably never really went through that process... which takes many many years of piano playing).

I clearly remember the first time I went through the book, being a bit shocked when I read this particular take.

[revolvingocelot]

>Of course, when you go for fast scales you do a "thumb over" which is not really that, but instead of the thumb rotation, you reposition your whole hand using your arm to keep going upwards

To belabour this point for non-pianists, the parent is describing what "thumb over" really is: a sort of physical consequence of playing a fast ascending arpeggio/scale. It isn't an alternative to "thumb under" so much as a good-faith approximation of it at speed. "Practicing" "thumb over", as in this YouTube video [0], would likely threaten the mapping of fingers to keys in a newer player. It's not wrong to acknowledge its existence, but IMO it's properly conceived of as a skill that develops as a consequence of playing normally (though quickly), not an alternative to it.

Because (and in spite of) the fact that he doesn't play piano, his observations on "thumb over" are interesting, but unless you're already aware of the true nature of "thumb over" his authoritative tone will lead you astray in terms of conceptual categorization.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLTbURVEEO4

[1] https://fundamentals-of-piano-practice.readthedocs.io/chapte...

[revolvingocelot]

...a fast ascending arpeggio/scale with the right hand, or a fast descending arpeggio/scale with the left hand, to be more precise

[rossjudson]

Perhaps you should re-read. On thumb-over and thumb-under (TO, TU):

"Both methods are required to play the scale but each is needed under different circumstances; TO is needed for fast, difficult passages and TU is useful for slow, legato passages, or when notes need to be held while playing other notes."

"Beginners should be taught TU first because it is needed for slow passages and takes longer to learn. The TO method should be taught as soon as faster scales are needed, within the first two years of lessons."

[MrGando]

It's both the way the technique is described and the name given to it "thumb over" that are unclear and misleading. I know the technique, and in my years of practice (semi-pro) I've never seen it described anything like that. It doesn't even have a "name" per-se, because you learn to play the piano with your whole body, so it becomes a natural thing that you just have to do to get that speed. And by the way, you can still use it when playing slow, if you want to obtain a certain "tone" or "sound".

[packjaddison]

In my head, after 'thumb-under', I think of 'skips' and 'leaps' depending on distance for whole-hand repositioning, which is descriptively accurate for fingering on the piano, guitar, and violin (etc.). Though, for the novice I could see how conceptualizing a movement this way could interfere with legato technique, as it encourages more discrete chunking than does the 'unbroken' thumb-under during a run. Does that nomenclature match your conceptualization at all?

[vixen99]

Also agree but the author makes (among others) a couple of excellent points worth emphasizing: anyone (if they're motivated) can learn to play the piano well and acquiring technique is mostly a process of brain/nerve development because the you are improving your brain while learning piano.

[agumonkey]

it's been so long since i've seen pbf comics .. such a superior format.

[jbaber]

He's made a few more recently, has a patreon, etc.

[illwrks]

I don't play piano, but my seven year old daughter does. She's doing her grade 2 exam soon enough.

I would also second that advice too! My wife taught her some basics but we got a private teacher for her about a year ago, that has supercharged her ability.

She does a 40 minute lesson once a week. The teacher writes notes on what she is to practice and learn. She practices her work for about an hour a day, and spends maybe another 30 minutes figuring out songs she likes (the Harry Potter theme is her current interest).

I would recommend doing the same to anyone else, a private teacher is the way to go.

As a side note, she didn't just start from zero, we've had her in some form of music and rhythm class since she was 9 months old. She has a good ear for music, timing and instruction, to the point where she used to surprise other parents/teachers with how attentive she was.

Also I make sure to have the classical radio on every morning and evening to further train her ear ;)

[andai]

> we've had her in some form of music and rhythm class since she was 9 months old

That's really cool, could you elaborate?

[eru]

Those are fairly common in eg Singapore. From as early as eg three months old.

See eg https://www.lucysparkles.com.sg/

[hatmatrix]

I had to laugh out loud when I read that the author openly admits to not being a pianist or a piano teacher... but a physicist. It reminds me a lot of physicists I know who approach every problem with the assumption that they can do it better than people who have been trying to solve the problem long before. On occasion, they are right, but this clearly appears to be one of those other times.

[jeffwass]

As both a physicist and a pianist, I have to comment that it’s not only physicists that make these assumptions.

[agumonkey]

Btw, do you have a reflex to model music as an abstract mathematical/geometric structure since you have a physics background ?

I'm not even a physicist but I cannot help but to see non linear interpolated curves and surfaces when I hear music. (curvature being somehow related to dissonance).

[eru]

Well, a lot of harmonies are built on top of the harmonic series.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx_kugSemfY

And tuning is all about 'numerical puns', similar to how eg 2^10 ~ 10^3, but for perfect fifths and octaves etc.

Of course, our physiology and culture is a bit too complicated and convoluted to understand everything about music from first principles like this. So most of the time you are better off learning (and treating) music as music instead of as applied math or physics.

[microtherion]

Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/793/

[hatmatrix]

Exactly! Forgotten about that XKCD

[rossjudson]

Oddly enough, the author himself says "get a piano teacher" when you're starting out. He also explicitly says that he's gathered together what he feels are the most effective practice techniques, culled from many books.

Your linked reviews spend a considerable amount of energy complaining about the author's lack of pedigree, of one sort or another...or paraphrasing things the author didn't say. Which isn't really paraphrasing, is it?

I think I've been playing piano since I was 7 too. After years away, I've been helping to teach my son. Most of the advice in the basic practice section is really, really good. Many of the techniques describe correspond quite well to what my son's (quite excellent) teacher asks him to do...and they work.

[MrGando]

The methods that work and are the kind of thing that any good teacher will tell you to do over a conversation in a coffee shop, meaning that you don't even need a piano to learn about them. Yes they do work, eg: learning a few bars at a time and separate hands.

The book totally falls apart when getting into the weeds. Piano is a corporal activity after all and while yes, there's definitely "frameworks" to make learning pieces more efficient, or practicing more efficient, the author gives very bad advice when he starts crossing the threshold towards what's technical and corporal... because he just doesn't know.

[spekcular]

Is that "corporeal" information actually written down anywhere? I've read a few books about piano technique and pedagogy, and they contain some mix of "obvious" stuff (also in this book), wrong/misinformed stuff, and poor written descriptions of various body movements.

It seems to me that piano is a physical activity that is impossible to teach through text, and that a good teacher is the only way. But I'd like to be wrong, or at least find some useful tips.

(This is to say nothing of interpretation and other musical matters, which seem even more impossible to transmit through writing...)

[MrGando]

You can read only up to a certain level (not super high). Out of the context of music, it would be like thinking about learning to play Tennis to a very high-level just by reading books. It's just extremely unlikely these days. In Piano, you might find some examples here & there (hard in classical, but look more into Jazz)... but the reality is that those folks were exceptional.

In piano (but true for a lot of sports too), when you hit a certain level, it will be more about how to make a lot of things work for your body, your hands... the way you are built. Doing that alone is possible, specially if you had a lot of instruction before. It does require a lot, a lot of intuition and a very solid foundation. It's also easier with the appropriate teacher, or mentor/s I should say.

Hopefully this helps you out a little?

[ashtonbaker]

Can I ask you what your path into jazz has been like?

I've been playing myself for like 25 years, classically trained for my whole childhood. I've always enjoyed improvisation and love jazz piano so much, but I've found it really hard to build from my very limited improv vocabulary into "serious" jazz, and I've had a hard time learning how to learn jazz, if that makes sense.

[yesenadam]

My unasked for 2c: (Jazz pianist here, did classical piano from very young, then started jazz at about 12)

- listen a lot to the greats and the players you love. The most common problem I see in students is them not listening to much/any jazz and expecting to be able to sound good.

- transcribe a lot, solos you love but dont know what they're doing. Solos on any instrument. Then play them. (If you can play them without transcribing them, great.)

[wazoox]

It's difficult to give advice in that matter without first hearing you giving a try at improvisation to check where you're starting from. I've started learning jazz at 16 (50 now) and you never cease to learn (obviously), but I can say that obviously different people learn in different ways.

Basically I'd say there are 3 parts in learning improvisation: the theoretical part (which is already a complex one because there are several possible theoretical approaches to jazz improvisation), the imitation part (learn and play back existing phrases, or better complete solos from the masters), the by-ear / singing part (the toughest one that most actually don't reach, at least reliably).

Don't forget that there is definitely a large social part in jazz improvisation; I'd rate my improvisation ability as uninteresting most of the time; I can get "in the zone" accidentally by myself, but more often it's a band thing: playing with the right people often enough and long enough to get together in "the zone". Yes, that's exactly the same zone as the programming one; you're lost in the music, feeling what's coming next and what notes should be played by whom (there only comes your technical ability in the picture) without thinking about it.

In my personal case, a long practice of classical piano hampered my early capability at improvisation for a long time and I needed the crutch of theory, and to intellectualize the process. Some blessed people "ear" the right notes without needing any justification "why" they are the right ones.

When you've got a long practice of your instrument, the difficulty is to free yourself from the reassuring but useless knowledge and habits you have that bring you to play this scale or this phrase because it's "in your fingers". The best way to reach that point is to have hundreds of ready phrases in all tones "in your fingers", and then try to forget them and listen to the music. Hopefully, you'll feel what goes where, like an unrolling, animated puzzle, or a Tetris game.

Personally I've found Kent Hewitt's advice to be very useful, I think it may help a lot of people. What's great in his playing is that he keeps it very simple, but always richly melodic. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdmjw5sm9Kn83TB_rA_QBCw

Another piece of advice I can give you is to learn to recognize chords and all the different ways they're built (by stacking thirds or fourths, etc) and how they come in succession (the usual II V I VI and friends) to get a better feel of what comes here or there.

[MrGando]

This is great advice. And I completely relate, after two years of working on Jazz (one pretty seriously), I can say that I feel like I'm being born again as a Pianist. It's extremely challenging and for me, all the classical luggage that I carry has made some things harder (swing, articulation).

My biggest leap in jazz so far, was to stop thinking about chord-scale relations and just focusing on chord-tones and extensions to outline the harmony of a piece, and approach notes to connect them.

I listen to a ton of jazz (nothing else but Jazz for a while). I've been transcribing Charlie Parker for a whole year, really working on his phrasing, heads, articulation, getting deep.

Disclaimer, I still think I'm terrible. My goal is to be somewhere less terrible in a couple more years... but I know I won't feel like that when I get there :D

PS: Get a great teacher, that's the biggest thing you can do to help yourself. Crazy good cats available for lessons these days.

[wazoox]

Serendipity stroke with this great video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEdtUOGCCnU

[ashtonbaker]

Good stuff, and thanks for your comment. This part clicks with me:

> When you've got a long practice of your instrument, the difficulty is to free yourself from the reassuring but useless knowledge and habits you have that bring you to play this scale or this phrase because it's "in your fingers". The best way to reach that point is to have hundreds of ready phrases in all tones "in your fingers", and then try to forget them and listen to the music. Hopefully, you'll feel what goes where, like an unrolling, animated puzzle, or a Tetris game.

[objclxt]

If you are classically trained I highly recommend Mark Levine’s book[1]. It digs into the theory of jazz, alongside improvisation. It does assume a working knowledge of basic theory, so not so great for those starting from scratch.

[1]: https://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Piano-Book-Mark-Levine/dp/096147...

[navbaker]

Joining an online community like Learn Jazz Standards really helps. You can work through exercises and lessons at your own pace, plus you have others who can give you constructive feedback. I’m a guitar player and joining a similar site, Fret Dojo, has pushed me way beyond where I would have gotten on my own.

[sandGorgon]

What is your opinion about the Taubman technique ? rotation and all.

Claims to be very RSI resistant and healthy ?

[prirun]

Learning rotation is important and there are lots of Taubman videos on YT that explain it in detail, usually with scales.

In a nutshell, there is the concept of single rotation and double rotation. When finger-to-finger movement is in one direction, like 1,2,3, you use double rotations. When going from 3 to 1, a single rotation. The movements are highly exaggerated for learning and demonstration.

I think it's easy to get hung up on "how can I play piano if I'm rotating my hand all over the place?" In my opinion, a large part of learning rotation and how to use it for slow practice on difficult passages is about freeing your arm and hand so they are not unintentionally opposing movement. Playing with tension or unintentional opposition, especially if you play hours a day, is one way to get RSI (tendonitis).

Here are some excellent YT resources for piano I have bookmarked. Several of these have videos that talk about forearm rotation:

  https://www.youtube.com/user/cedarvillemusic
  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3vYz1SAtcbRhsatydObGQw
  https://www.youtube.com/user/PianistMagazine (Graham Fitch)
  https://www.youtube.com/user/SteveMass1101
  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr0BMA5yu3AS0alkR7kYwEQ
  https://www.youtube.com/user/aw4piano
  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLsMRd097KLJMvkNzC4rYAA
  https://www.youtube.com/c/DanielBarenboim/videos
  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6tpkZhNpJiTnlUgoiUe9QQ

[sandGorgon]

Thank you so much ! This is brilliant.

[MrGando]

I think it's very interesting and there's a lot to be gained by working on it (which I'm actually starting to do). The hardest scale in piano is C major probably, or at least one of the hardest ones... just started with Taubman, but C major (and D major) are sounding way better, even with what I would say is not a huge time investment.

[sandGorgon]

any resources or tutorials that were very helpful for you ? would love to get in on that.

[MrGando]

There's very good teachers doing zoom lessons these days. And I think Taubman technique is the sort of thing that you'll need a teacher so that the concepts can be applied to how you're playing. Start here https://www.golandskyinstitute.org/faculty-of-the-golandsky-...

Good luck :)