[rwcarlsen]

Where is the discussion about the fact that a very large fraction of these employees likely already had far superior natural immunity - which is provable. So they were fired for refusing to undergo what amounts to an unnecessary medical procedure. And these vaccines are non-sterilizing - so it's not like other vaccinations that are routinely required in other public health contexts.

[bastawhiz]

"Provably" is doing a lot of work here. Could they screen each of the employees for immunity? Yes. And the cost of that would be high, and you wouldn't get results back for two weeks or more.

And, natural immunity fades faster than vaccine immunity[0], so it's _not_ unnecessary. Hybrid immunity is "provably" better than natural immunity alone.

0: [edit: not from the delta variant]

[rwcarlsen]

This is actually false and contradicts findings from several very reputable and large studies. See e.g. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...

[bastawhiz]

> Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.

Did you read your own link?

[rwcarlsen]

Yes - infected+vaccinated is more protected than infected. But infected is way more protected than vaccinated only. If your position is that everyone should meet the highest standard of infected+vaccinated - which is only marginally better than just being infected - then we should be mandating mandatory covid infection. But if your position is that vaccination alone provides acceptable protection, then infection alone already far far surpasses that in both lasting immunity and total efficacy.

[edit] Here is an excerpt from their conclusion:

"This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity."

[bastawhiz]

> But infected is way more protected than vaccinated only.

For the Pfizer vaccine, against the Delta variant specifically.

> If your position is that everyone should meet the highest standard of infected+vaccinated - which is only marginally better than just being infected - then we should be mandating mandatory covid infection. But if your position is that vaccination alone provides acceptable protection, then infection alone already far far surpasses that in both lasting immunity and total efficacy.

This is an absurd argument to make. There's no ethical argument to infect people. And the absolute material difference between vaccinated and natural immunity is literally dozens out of a population of over 600,000. Natural immunity might be "way more protected" but that's speaking in relative terms.

[rwcarlsen]

I agree it's absurd - which is why I wasn't sure why it sounded like you were making it. So since we established natural immunity is superior - why is it being ignored? Apparently it's not part of _the_ science.

[TheCoelacanth]

Everyone shouldn't be required to meet the highest standard of protection. Everyone should be required to meet the highest standard of protection that can be achieved with neglible risks.

COVID infection has significant risks that rule it out as a medical intervention, even it is sometimes beneficial. Vaccination is virtually risk-free.

[rwcarlsen]

But what about people that have already engaged and benefited from that risk? For many of those people, the vaccine risk is not so negligible compared to the additional benefit they gain from any (much smaller) immune boost they might get. Also, how is policy making "following _the_ science" if it doesn't even acknowledge the superiority of natural immunity. The least they could do is own their disregard and say - we're ignoring some science for [reasons] instead of simply demonizing a large fraction of the population as bigoted selfish backward uneducated scum - which is my interpretation of POTUS declaring war on 20% of Americans - a so called "pandemic of the unvaccinated" in his own words (or whoever wrote the speech).

[bananabiscuit]

I read their link:

> This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity.

[xjlin0]

This is not published yet -- not even pass peer review... In graduate schools professors often give two papers stating contradictory conclusions. Gotta to find which one is correct.

[lrnyc21]

To be in certain healthcare settings you’re often required to be vaccinated against some diseases e.g. if you’re going to be part of surgeries you need to get a TB vaccine. That’s a public health measure and this is no different.

[Cerealkiller050]

This is the one thing I just don't get. I check the news everyday to see if the U.S. government has clarified the natural immunity part. The amount of research on it seems good, and other countries already acknowledge it and use it.

Why??

[tastyfreeze]

The only reasoning that makes sense at this point is that the US Government doesn't care if you have natural immunity. They want you to do as they say or suffer.

[munk-a]

Vaccines are still beneficial and the more complicated the rules get the harder the administration of them becomes. Everyone[1] can, without any cost to themselves either monetarily or health-wise, go out and get a vaccine - if you suffered from COVID I'm sorry that you'll have long COVID systems but you'll also be supervaccinated at that point - which is even better!

1. With a few very very specific exceptions that should be respected.

[rwcarlsen]

"because it's inconvenient" seems like a pretty poor precedent to set for governments mandating (unnecessary) medical procedures.

[munk-a]

Nah - the reason mandates are emerging is because people are acting irresponsibly and prolonging an event that's causing extreme amounts of economic damage. We want to get through this so that the country can return to normal economic activity.

The reason the mandates are so sweeping is because Americans are intensely litigious and making them targeted would potentially run afoul of all sorts of laws like the ADA.

[rwcarlsen]

From my evaluation and research, nearly all the economic damage is being caused by said mitigations - not the virus or pandemic itself. So... stop doing the things that damage the economy? People want to work. People want to travel. People want to play. Let. Them. Do. It. A few are fearful and want to hide - that's fine too.

[munk-a]

These mitigations wouldn't be in place if there wasn't a pandemic on - the faster we can solve that the faster we can open things up again.

And this problem might be unsolvable - if that's the case then the vaccine mandates (which do lower risk) will probably become as set in stone as MMR shots which, if you went to school in America, you almost certainly got.

[rwcarlsen]

You mean the shots that provide sterilizing immunity for diseases that have orders of magnitude higher mortality rates for children and healthy people? None of which is true with COVID - and anyone that disagrees can just look up the stats on the CDCs website and read about sterilizing immunity on wikipedia.

[po1nt]

I'm all for vaccines but all against mandates. Vaccine is for your own safety and won't affect spread rate (that much). There are many procedures you can do to your body that can benefit you or others yet we don't act like it's legitimate for government to force this.

You know you can live with one kidney just fine.

[lrnyc21]

Not true. 1. By not getting vaccinated you’re a potential Burden to the health system and taxpayers so it’s a public health issue. 2. Data shows vaccines reduce spread.

[po1nt]

1) You're burden for many life decisions. You're burden if you decide to smoke, if you decide to eat junk food and you're burden if you don't excercise. Still government should not have power to decide this. 2) So does natural immunity and it's frowned upon

[steakknife]

I have bad news for toddlers who want to smoke in restaurants...

[po1nt]

I hope somebody will pay their tab. The job market for toddlers is bad right now. It's like they are supposed to be reliant on their parents.

[bobthechef]

> Data shows vaccines reduce spread.

So does natural immunity, but this is being suppressed.

> By not getting vaccinated you’re a potential Burden to the health system

This doesn't mean you can MANDATE someone to take the vaccine. This is a violation of medical ethics to use someone instrumentally for the sake of some other good (which is precisely that you're describing).

[munk-a]

1) Nobody (that I've seen in this discussion section at least) is denying that natural immunity is quite effective at preventing spread and complications - though a lot of people are correctly mentioning that natural immunity + vaccination has been shown to be even more effective than just natural immunity (so why not get vaccinated anyways).

2. Living in a society means you can mandate a vaccine - it means you can mandate a whole lot of things. I'm still unable to drive a tank to work even though I probably wouldn't hurt anyone - how unjust is that! Being part of a society comes with rules and requirements you need to follow - even in freedom loving america. There is a way you can leave that society - it is still quite possible. Buying a cabin in remote Oregon won't suffice but you can emigrate to an area of the world that doesn't effectively enforce laws - they do still exist.

So no, nobody is mandating that your body receive the vaccine - the mandate is that if you want to keep living in a prosperous society you need to do the absolute minimum to keep everyone in that society safe.

[tastyfreeze]

The vaccine mandate is ignoring the effectiveness of natural immunity. The mandate is get vaccinated or get fired.

[tomrod]

Flu vaccine is not sterilizing and commonly required required by employers.

[nojito]

Many healthcare organizations require flu shots these days.