[hnlmorg]

It's a very personal decision though. For example, if I may offer up some counterarguments:

> I step outside my home office to see my family and start unwinding for the evening. No wasted time on commute

I find the commute (by train, I'm lucky enough to get a seat) far more effective for unwinding to be honest. And once I'm home, I'm far more engaged with the family due to having that buffer time between work and home.

> the options for places to live are endless.

That never actually stopped me before. Hence the commute

> Not to mention I eat my own food on my lunch break.

the biggest thing I miss about not commuting into London is the food. The variety, the quality, and above all, not having to cook it myself. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind cooking. But a lot of eateries do a lot better job of their signature meal than I could.

That all said, I'm in no rush to go back. And when I do, it'll be a hybrid approach. Some days in and some days from home.

edit: why am I getting heavily down voted for discussing personal reasons why I enjoyed working in the office? It's not like I'm telling you your opinions are wrong or that you should go back to the office. All I'm doing is voicing that there are some who do enjoy travelling into the city most days. Is it really that offensive a view point to read? Some people on here don't deserve to have moderation privileges.

[pengaru]

It's not like you don't have the option of burning $duration_of_commute on personal time when you're already at home. You set the boundaries, enforce them.

[hnlmorg]

That's one of those things that's much easier said than done.

It's also not always about personal time, sometimes it's just catching up on sleep on the train. Without wanting to go too much into personal circumstance, that sleep was really valuable in a way that trying to have a nap at home isn't. And that energy went directly back to the kids.

While I might have gained an hour during the week by not commuting, in practical terms that hour doesn't always translate into more engagement with the kids -- much as I'd love it if it could (again, not wanting to go too much into personal circumstance here).

Anyhow, I'm not trying to paint the picture that I'm better off commuting. I'm definitely better off working from home. I'm just trying to illustrate that some people do extract value from their commute.

[pengaru]

> I'm just trying to illustrate that some people do extract value from their commute.

There's nothing preventing such people from commuting wastefully to their own home if the value is high enough.

Last I checked there was nothing prohibiting commuters from commuting in loops, and there's nothing controversial about appreciating some time away from the people at home. You can get in your car or board public transit if you want, that nap sounds pretty good from where I'm sitting atm.

I used to commute to a cafe for the separation and enjoyable travel time vs. just staying at home. The salient point is you have options with WFH, it isn't some kind of prison sentence unless you make it one.

[hnlmorg]

> The salient point is you have options with WFH, it isn't some kind of prison sentence unless you make it one.

No. You only have that option if your company supports flexible working. Your approach of saying everyone has to work remotely regardless of whether they want to is as toxic as those who suggest everyone should work in the office, even if they want the option to work remotely.

This is what the "remote brigade" need to comprehend. Those of us who say "we like offices" aren't trying to take your freedom away. We're simply asking that you don't take our choices away when advocating for your flexibility.

[hnlmorg]

I'm getting downvoted again but it's quite true.

Flexible working is the approach we should be striving for. Those who can work remotely can continue to do so. And those who want to come in to the office can do so. We shouldn't assume that remote work is a one size fits all and that's exactly what comments like the GPs does. Furthermore we should assume that those who do like office work are the unreasonable ones. We're not. We're still happy for you to work from home. We just don't personally want to do that every day ourselves.

This isn't just theoretical. I run 3 teams of engineers and push this rule onto them. Thus far it has been very successful.

[mullingitover]

The problem with flexibility with mixed on-prem and remote is the open plan offices. Open plan and mixed remote/on-prem are a nightmare combination.

I'd get to work, and right off the bat I'd be on calls with people who weren't working on prem. So I'm either that jerk on a call in the open plan office while everyone's trying to do heads-down work, or I'm scrambling to find a phone booth.

So I'd end up spending half my days crammed into a phone booth at the office so I could meet with people who weren't there. The office contributed zero to my productivity, it was just a miserable time hoping I could even find an available phone booth because there were a dozen other people on the office vying for one.

If we're going back to on-prem, even as an option, we should combine it with admitting that open plan was a mistake and doesn't work with the mixed remote/on-prem model.

[Riverheart]

The "wasteful" bit and dismissive attitude really necessary to make your point? Not everyone can or finds it easy to keep healthy boundaries and having a physical separation between work and home with a mandatory commute works for those people.

[ipaddr]

There is a group of people who a 5 hour commute would be preferable because they hate their homelife. There are always people better off working more or staying out longer would make life easier. Trading 10 hours of commuting time for 10 hours of naps is something that could be addressed by going to sleep earlier and now those 10 hours can be family time. We shouldn't be going into offices for these secondary effects.

[hnlmorg]

> something that could be addressed by going to sleep earlier

Please don't make bullshit assumptions like this when I've already said I didn't want to go into personal circumstances. In my case, the problem is medical, not motivational. And that's all I want to discuss because it's personal and, frankly put, none of your fucking business why I'm tired on an evening.

> We shouldn't be going into offices for these secondary effects.

I'm not advocating that people should be going into offices. What I'm advocating is that people should be allowed to decide for themselves if they want to go in. Having someone like yourself tell me I should work from home is just as toxic as any discussions arguing that employees should go in. What I'm suggesting is companies should offer flexibility because people will have different preferences.

Also you've just latched on the sleep thing as if that's the only benefit I get from going into the office. That's simply not the case. It was just a detail this tangent zeroed in on.

[jdavis703]

Doesn’t work like that when your coworkers are working extra hours because they’re also not commuting.

[sokoloff]

What’s the difference there versus workers who lived very close to the office? If a coworker is working harder than you, good for them. If that makes them more valuable, paid more, promoted faster, or whatever, so be it. At least with remote work, you could choose the same path as them if you wanted to.

[hahajk]

For those who are worried that they’ll miss the commute, you should consider ending the work day with exercise. You still get the alone/unplugged time but combined with endorphins and a general feeling of wellness. And it’s way better for you than sitting in a car!

[hnlmorg]

The commute was a form of exercise, I'd clock up several miles each day (most people don't drive into London. They usually take the train).

However I do completely agree with you about going for a run. That was the one commute replacement activity which I did find worked for me. Unfortunately the UK's weather often discourages one from non-mandatory forms of exercise. When it's raining, it is far easier to be motivated to walk home from the train station than it is to leave the house to go running. This is obviously a poor excuse but it is still the pragmatic truth of the matter.

[bboylen]

So this shows why flexibility is important, so you can satisfy the different preferences of employees.

From the article, it sounds like the CEO wanted to get rid of remote work all together.

[jboy55]

I have experience with a company that went 'ROW' back in the 10s. If a majority of your company is remote, you can forget about the office, its a dead space. There's no water cooler talk, no games after work. I can see why some companies are going to try the hybrid model.

I do agree with the GP, there is something about the separation between work and living. I miss the feeling that when I did work from home "after hours", it was for special cases, rather than the "same old".

[ghaff]

Which is one of several reasons for a lot of the emotion around the question. People are already discovering that if you’re largely a pre-pandemic office person, that doesn’t work if most of your co-workers are only wandering in maybe a day per week if at all.

[datavirtue]

When I was at GE we straight up ignored the division CTO and just worked from home when we felt like it...a whole org team under him (he specifically banned WFH more than 1 day a week, most of us worked at least two or three). We scheduled meetings in rooms at the office and came in on those days when we felt the need. It worked fine.

Most companies I have been at just ignored the CEOs stupid out-of-touch WFH proclaimations. This was tech though. The other departments usually obeyed on a case by case basis.

[ghaff]

I do think there are a fair number of people looking for more than come into the office for meetings now and then though. There’s also the fact that you still need to live in some semblance of commuting distance. That says 1.5 to 2 hours one way is doable for a day a week and gives you quite a bit of flexibility.

[hnlmorg]

Indeed. I've seen some companies say they want people back in 100% of the time but I've seen others close their office and have all their employees work remotely 100% of the time. I feel both are toxic policies to place on your entire workforce and the best approach is flexibility because different employees will have different preferences and needs.

Thankfully there are a good number of companies (in the UK at least) who are allowing their employees to make this decision themselves.

[PeterisP]

I've been thinking about this and perhaps the most appropriate solution is to not have onsite companies vs remote companies, and also not companies with a random mix of the both; but having a company consist of onsite teams and remote work teams - so both preferences can work well, but you can optimize the day-to-day work process (which usually happens within a team) to the very different needs of in-office vs work-from-home environment.

[hnlmorg]

I disagree. I think the best solution is giving your employees flexibility. People who want to travel into the office can do so. People who want to work remotely can also do so. And people are able to come in as often or infrequently as they want.

There will always be instances where fully remote people might still want to come in (eg someone leaving social). And there will be reasons why people who normally like to come in every day might chose not to (eg a doctors appointment at lunch time).

[PeterisP]

I agree that this is what employees would prefer; however, I'm not certain that full flexibility is the most effective way of achieving results for the business. My (totally unverified) assumption is that giving employees a choice between a remote team and an on-site team captures most of the value that the employees care about in that choice, while still allowing teams to choose a reasonably effective remote or on-site work process.

[hnlmorg]

I manage a few teams and have been trialling allowing employees to chose their working terms. It's been working fine for us thus far. I'm sure other companies could manage too.

[datavirtue]

He wanted to get rid of choice altogether. Hostile bias enforced by institutional power...not a sustainable position these days. Go back to Honeywell or GE.

[the_gipsy]

> I find the commute far more effective for unwinding to be honest. And once I'm home, I'm far more engaged with the family due to having that buffer time between work and home.

I’ve found myself taking the car for a quick drive downtown where the grid locks, after I finish working from home. Can’t wait for it to be mandatory again!

[Sanguinaire]

I have been 100% remote for years and am content to continue to be so, but I totally see where you're coming from. I was never thrilled by my train journey into London, but the short walk I had on the home end was some of my best "thinking" time. One of the ways my mental health has suffered most since moving on from that time in my life is a steady decline in enforced personal time, and a lack of willpower to re-introduce it. Not made easier by our shitty weather discouraging impromptu walks.

[eCa]

> impromptu walks

Make them non-impromptu. Since the pandemic started I have made a 20 minute lunch walk, and a longer (30-90 minutes) walk part of my work-from-home routine. I have maybe skipped one if them five days the last 18 months.

This evening I walked 7k in 12C and a light drizzle, so the weather isn’t great here either.

On the other hand, I live alone and enjoy walking so I realize that it is perhaps nit as easy for everyone.

[heavyset_go]

> I find the commute far more effective for unwinding to be honest

No one is stopping you from unwinding after work if you work from home. Hop in the car when you're done with work and enjoy a relaxing "commute" on your own terms.

[hnlmorg]

I should have specified that my commute is a train ride. Taking the train somewhere for no reason and back again wouldn't be particularly relaxing. But if you have to take the train (and you're fortunate enough to get a seat like I can) then you do find ways to make the most of that commute.

But the real point I'm trying to make isn't that everyone should commute. No. What I'm saying is I'm as entitled to enjoy my commute to work as you are to enjoy working from home. A good company will offer flexibility rather than applying the same rule to everyone universally.

[CameronNemo]

This is an important detail. A huge proportion of those in the US are going to be commuting by car (which is really unpleasant for me personally), or paying a lot of money to live somewhere with good transit options.

[hnlmorg]

And an even larger proportion of those who work in technology don't live in the US. I know this is a very SV orientated forum but discussion companies are having with their employees regarding remote work is happening right across the globe.

[CameronNemo]

Okay, but Blue Origin is in the US and is not in Silicon Valley. It is in Kent, Washington, which despite being <20 miles from downtown Seattle, takes an hour to get there via bus. Even longer if you live up in Fremont, or god forbid Bellevue (1h40m by bus, again for <20 miles).

[hnlmorg]

This discussion went beyond the scope of Blue Origin right at the OP level.

[stefan_]

I actually think city dwellers are entitled to not have a horde of office workers invade every day and demand roads and parking spaces be built for their utterly superfluous unwinding commute.

They call it congestion charge but it's more your suburban commuting habit is making everyone that actually lives here miserable.

[hnlmorg]

London earns millions every day from office workers coming into the city, paying for food, drinks, and other local services. It's not like us commuters are draining money from your local economy.

Plus if you didn't want your home town to be invaded by commuters each day then a city, any city in fact, is absolutely the worst place you could chose to live.

[AlbertCory]

I was in Paris for a conference in the mid-90s. Actually, it was in La Defense which is out in the 'burbs. In Paris, people live in the city and commute out to work. They can't build skyscrapers within the city.

This was before WFH was a thing.

[hnlmorg]

While you're right that the ground isn't strong enough (which itself is a fascinating subject) for skyscrapers in the city centre, there are still plenty of multi-story office blocks. Plus there are plenty of business districts that fall outside the city centre but still very much within the parameter of Paris itself and those districts do have sky scrapers (I've spend some time in one of those districts myself). https://www.consorto.com/blog/paris-is-top-for-european-offi...

This isn't that unusual for European cities. Often you'll find the city centre will be buildings of historic significance so a lot of the office blocks in the city centre will still be multi-story but not 10s of floors. Even in London the skyscrapers are generally just outside the centre.

From what I gather about London, most of the skyscapers are pretty expensive units to rent so many offices find the relatively smaller blocks a more attractive option. Usually renting space from those skyscapers are more a signalling of importance -- or rather a business attempting to signal that.

[hamburglar]

If I move to London now, I’m entitled to demand all the commuters stop “invading” my city?

[Grimm1]

I pay my taxes and I’ll use the services I pay for as I see fit.

[mullingitover]

> I find the commute far more effective for unwinding to be honest.

Nobody's stopping you from going for a couple hour-long drives on your own dime before and after work, if that's what you're really into. The pandemic has really shown everyone how absurd it is to take on the risk, expense, and uncompensated time consumed by commuting when it's been proven to be unnecessary in most cases.

[oarsinsync]

> > the options for places to live are endless.

> That never actually stopped me before. Hence the commute

There's a lot of miles (literally) between endless options of places to live, and places that are within commuting distance to the office.

[tinyhouse]

This is so true. Sometimes when I WFH I feel depressed after realizing I haven't been out for like two days.

[felipellrocha]

Because, like everything else in this country, this discussion is super polarized. I am with you in that i actually enjoy my commute. Without it, the days blend in a very unsettling way.

But there is a vocal minority of people who do not want to go back to the office and they consider our position to be threatening. There are benefits to the hybrid model, which is what I’ll be pursuing.

[ghaff]

Well, many companies do actually take employer feedback. So it’s not unreasonable that people who want to come into the office regularly and may in fact want to live or have already moved somewhere they can’t do so, at least react to pushes for environments that don’t accommodate them.

[rewma]

> why am I getting heavily down voted for discussing personal reasons why I enjoyed working in the office?

My guess is that there has been chatter on how discussions on WFO, specially in tech forums, are brigaded by shills to sell the illogical idea that getting back to the office is fantastic and awesome, and the hallmark of these shills is the fact that their arguments in favour of returning to office are simply unbelievable. And quite frankly you post reads like that.

I have to say that I found it very weird, and outright unbelievable, that someone was arguing that commutes were "far more effective for unwinding". To me that makes no sense at all, because when working from home you are free to pick whatever you'd like to do with that time, instead of being forced to sit in a car or public transportation and waste away your life while you endure traffic. I mean, if suffering commutes is something you enjoy then if you work from home nothing stops you from hopping into your preferred means of transportation and go anywhere you'd like. But you can also do any other thing. Is driving to/from the office during rush hour the most pleasurable and relaxing thing possible? I quite doubt it.

So why claim that being forced to do something is more effective at unwinding than actually pick whatever you'd like to do? It makes no sense.

[yojo]

I used to commute ~40 minutes each way by streetcar. I spent the time sardined in with the other unfortunate folk, one hand on a strap, the other on my Kindle. Every day I cursed SFs oversubscribed transit system.

Switching to WFH was way better. But I was reading a sci-fi book a week on the commute, after the shift I was lucky to get in four a year.

In theory I could set aside 80 minutes a day for personal reading, but in practice it feels incredibly selfish to not help with the family and housework.

Do I want to go back to muni hell? No. But I can understand how someone might have enjoyed their (non-car) commute. I will shoot myself before I ever go back to driving an hour each way on the 101 though.

[hnlmorg]

I commute by train. I'm lucky enough to be guaranteed a seat. And it is a very comfortable ride. That time can be spent meditating with my favourite music playing in my earphones. There isn't a rats chance in hell I'd get that same quality time at home with two noisy kids running rampant throughout the house.

Have you considered that perhaps people making comments like mine are not shills, they just have different personal circumstances that you hadn't encountered before?

[wdb]

I wish commute by train would work in London. I had to commute for years out of London (living in Zone 1) and most of the time I didn't had a place to sit. Trains are also crazy loud in this country, and not really reliable and quite expensive.

They charge pricing here that could get me a year country-wide travel first class card in Switzerland.

[hnlmorg]

Regarding London trains: it very much depends what line you go on and how far down that line you are as to whether you get a seat. The reliability and expense problems are very real though :(

[wdb]

I was taking the train from Paddington to Hays and Staines. Tube wise Central line is horrible. One reason to work from home lol

[hnlmorg]

By "train" I was thinking more the overground and national rail services rather than starting your journey from zone 1 of the underground. But I guess, technically, the underground is a "train" too

[tech2]

Assuming that your commute is around an hour means you're "only" paying £4k/annum (after tax) for that benefit. I agree there is a benefit to the commute (for me it was the walk/exercise), but I find it hard to rationalize otherwise and that's a willpower thing

[throwme159]

I doubt they have, given the way their post was written. Expecting tech people to have empathy is a bit much.

[devnulll]

> [...] found it very weird, and outright unbelievable, that someone was arguing that commutes were "far more effective for unwinding".

Ex (multi) FAANG engineering director here. I personally find that a 30 minute commute home is more effective for separating work and home than just the clock. The data published (by MSFT) shows employees are working more hours now than ever before.

Now, those pale in comparison to things like on-call rotations, email on Cell Phones, Slack & Team's notifications on mobile, etc. The Amazon practice of "DevOps SDEs are always on-call" that's spread across the industry makes disengaging from work in order to engage with family & friends generally impossible, even on vacation.

[wdb]

I like to go for a short walk after work to the local supermarket or walk to the local parks (like Hyde or Regent's Park)

[rewma]

> Ex (multi) FAANG engineer here. I personally agree that a 30 minute commute home is more effective for separating work and home than just the clock. The data published (by MSFT) shows employees are working more hours now than ever before.

Current FAANG engineer here. I totally disagree, and the numbers support my case. My organization saw a jump in productivity when switching to WFO accompanied by a considerable increased in job satisfaction.

WFO, accompanied by flexible work hours, allowed everyone in my team to benefit from more personal time and also opportunities to research topics of interest, which already paid off in the product we developed.

[devnulll]

> Current FAANG engineer here. I totally disagree, and the numbers support my case. My organization saw a jump in productivity when switching to WFO accompanied by a considerable increased in job satisfaction.

You're moving the goalpost on this. For me, as someone else stated, the separation between home life and work life is a bit easier with a commute. That's not touching on productivity, overall job satisfaction, or anything else.

I'm not even talking tradeoffs here - there's no "I prefer to work from the office because XYZ". I prefer working from home, for a variety of reasons. However, I do recognize that in this one specific area - separation of work/home life, the commute was beneficial.

Were I to list 50 pros/cons of working from home (which I've done), the winner is WFH. That doesn't mean an absence of positive aspects to the "work from the office" column.

[rewma]

> You're moving the goalpost on this. For me, as someone else stated, the separation between home life and work life is a bit easier with a commute.

The point is that separation from home and work life does not require or mandate a commute or even getting back to the office. That position is indefensible. Being forced to endure something unsavoury against your best wishes ever single work day is not easier nor the only effective way to get some separation between your personal and work life. That's something you do, not something that's done to you.

Some people are quite happy with a home office, some people opt to work anywhere. I have a team member that works by the pool, and another team member who worked while travelling through Europe. If you are not forced to be present on a specific cubicle in a specific building for X hours a day then you have quite literally the whole world at your disposal, and your imagination is the only limit.

And you know what? That reflects on quality of life work/life balance, and overall job satisfaction. Your life matters and enjoying how you live it matters. That's the whole point of working, not a whimsical position where a post happened to be moved.

So no, being packed like sardines along with dozens of depressed and tired and often smelly fellow drones in a train or subway or bus, of being forced to endure traffic jams or road rages, is neither the only way to separate work from personal life, nor the most enjoyable or even effective at all. There are far better things to do in life, and you're free to pick them all.

[hnlmorg]

> That position is indefensible. Being forced to endure something unsavoury against your best wishes ever single work day is not easier nor the only effective way to get some separation between your personal and work life

The position that everyone should have to work from home even if they don't want to is also indefensible. What myself and others are saying when we argue the benefits we get from office work is that employees should have the freedom to chose the flexible working arrangement that works for them

There's a real tone on HN lately that everyone should work remotely and anyone who doesn't support that is against them and frankly I find that attitude to be just as toxic as the CEOs saying everyone should come back to the office.

Even yourself are saying all the reasons we like office work can be replicated when working from home -- maybe that's true on some level but it doesn't matter. If some of use want to come into the office then why can't we?

[Ms-J]

Or how about driving back home in rush-hour traffic after working an entire eight hour day? Even worse!

Anyone advocating that people must return to the office are extreme lone-wolves. Or a CEO fronting as an employee.

[hellisothers]

I’d never call my old ride home nuts to butts on BART “unwinding” but it certainly created a coda between work and home. Now when I walk out of my office at home I’m still in problem solving “work talk” mode and it takes a bit to get out of it.