[CyberRage]

It's far far worse. Tesla is probably the only company in the world that produces\designs its own batteries, motors and electronics.

Most "competitors" are just buying batteries\electronics from a vendor and shoving it in.

Tesla partnered with Panasonic and created their own custom modules(2170), now they plan to do everything with the newly announced 4680(from raw materials to products).

They are truly unmatched.

[lastofthemojito]

Henry Ford created a factory "capable of taking in raw materials on one end and spitting out finished automobiles on the other". [0]

Not all automakers have done things that way though, and other automakers are able to complete with Ford. Vertical integration can sometimes be an asset, other times the "Not Invented Here" culture proves limiting. Tesla's had incredible success thus far, but we probably need a couple more decades to see if they maintain their first mover advantage or if other players end up being more agile and more successful.

0: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a23478147/ford-river-rouge...

[CyberRage]

Ford had years of domination, didn't it?

It is extremely hard to predict 15 years from now but the next five years?

There are no competitors(perhaps besides Chinese battery makers) everyone is still in early R&D\prototype phases.

[lastofthemojito]

Ford achieved the ore-to-assembly goal in 1927. General Motors become the highest volume automaker in the US starting in 1931. Ford's sold a ton of cars too though. My point is just that Ford did extreme vertical integration and were successful. But GM did things differently and that worked for them too.

Looks like some of this has been studied by Harvard Business School: https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=45289

Anyhow, you tout Tesla's deep work in batteries, motors and electronics (and let's not forget glass, doors, seats and other areas where Tesla has decided not to out-source). I can see where another company might be the GM to Tesla's Ford - finding success buying some of the right bits and pieces rather than spending an insane amount of money (re-)inventing them for themselves.

[CyberRage]

I really really hope that we will have competition coming from VW, Toyota.

We need to advance the technology which is still not good enough for our global needs, but knowing where these two are.... I'm skeptical

[yarcob]

Tesla has a lead now, but I wonder how long it'll hold up.

At some point electric drivetrains and batteries will be available in large quantities from suppliers just like gasoline motors and gearboxes are available now.

As soon as that is the case, there will be many dozens of different car models that compete with Tesla.

Teslas vertical integration is an advantage now, because they don't have to wait for suppliers to develop what they need. But once suppliers have caught up, I'm not sure if Teslas edge holds.

[delfinom]

Yea seriously. Tesla is just a company with a lead but they are in a industry filled with tens of thousands more engineers who have suddenly become tasked with switching to EV design at a fast pace.

[terafo]

And yet forecasts say that only 50% of VW and BMW sales will come from EV by 2030 with tens of billions poured into conversion they say that it isn't possible to go any faster. And they are faster than other major players.

[jeffbee]

Ah yes, most companies just buy batteries from Panasonic and shove them in their cars, but the galaxy brains at Tesla instead buy batteries from Panasonic and shove them into “custom modules” which is clearly materially different.

[kjksf]

Just to start, as of today Tesla is Panasonic's only automotive client. Panasonic talked recently about the need to get more auto clients for their cells but so far it's been just talk.

As to your dismissive "galaxy brains at Tesla": unlike Ford or GM or Toyota, Tesla does a lot of R&D in battery cells.

I know that because they are hiring tons of people for cell research and production: https://www.tesla.com/careers/search/?country=US&query=cell

I did similar searches in the past so I know that they've been hiring for cell research for years.

For contrast, despite GM claiming they make Ultium batteries, few months back I didn't find a single job post for cell engineering.

I also know that because Tesla has been sponsoring Canadian cell research lab led by Jeff Dahn.

This resulted in multiple patents awarded to Tesla.

Tesla also bought Grohman Engineering (which makes, among other things, robots that assemble battery packs), Maxwell (for their dry electrode technology) and a Canadian manufacturer of equipment for making battery cells.

Musk also talked how they work with every company that claims they have an improved cell technology and how they evaluate their cells.

There is no evidence that Ford or GM or Toyota made similar investments in batter cell and battery pack R&D and production.

[CyberRage]

Wrong. Tesla has custom designs from form factor to chemistry.

Panasonic was crucial at the begining with their own designed\made 18650. their role is shrinking fast

Tesla's expertise when it comes to batteries is unmatched in the auto-motive industry, no doubt about that.

Tesla is not using Panasonic at all for their new batteries.

[jeffbee]

Get a grip, Tesla fan. Your shares are doing fine without the reality distortion. People who buy cells from Panasonic directly are getting the exact same chemistry and form factor with which Telsa cars are equipped. Quoting from Tesla's own 10-Q filing, emphasis added.

"""Under our arrangement with Panasonic, we plan to purchase the full output from their production equipment at negotiated prices … Currently, we rely on suppliers such as Panasonic for these cells."""

Seriously, there is no shame in it. They are good batteries! They are made by Panasonic using Panasonic chemistry on Panasonic equipment, though.

[CyberRage]

You don't have to believe me but I don't own a tesla nor do I own Tesla stocks.

Tesla do have their own custom chemistry and doping, it is written all over the internet you're willing to read that.

TEsla has several patents and their own research group: https://www.scribd.com/document/440951044/Tesla-battery-pate...

https://www.scribd.com/document/424878572/J-Electrochem-Soc-...

just to name a few. to me you seem like a Tesla skeptic, unwilling to acknowledge their success

[jeffbee]

The patent and the chemistry you are trying to link to — by the way, Scribd is a scam, here is a link to the PDF[1] — is university research funded in part by Tesla.

1: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/2.0341813jes/pdf

Undoubtedly good chemistry research but doesn't have anything to do with the batteries that are actually in cars you can actually buy.

[CyberRage]

You're still trying to defend your position... sad.

Claiming Tesla is the same as VW which basically buys batteries and shoves them into existing chassis\frames, is a joke.

Tesla produces most of the worlds batteries:

https://www.mining.com/muskmobiles-running-rivals-off-the-ro...

In their own factories, which automaker has this level of integration?

Tesla has the best battery longevity metrics according to thousands of tested cars: https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-dat...

Tesla is the only company with vast\robust charging network: https://hbr.org/2021/01/how-teslas-charging-stations-left-ot...

Tesla is the only company seriously investing in their own battery facilities. boots on the ground, working facilities.

Now tell me how Tesla is just like any other player in the EV space again?