[alenmilk]

So when you sit in endless meaningless meetings and see how the management create insurmountable obstacles that make it impossible to actually do some meaningful work while whining about deadlines and changing the requirements on a whim, you should just be thankful that you have a nice paying job? Well you can be thankful and still cry inside since if the management were competent, you could get 3x done. If you feel this several decades you die inside little by little until you do what is described in the article.

[kerbs]

I think the point is that these are not real problems.

My wife works in healthcare, and agree that our "problems" are paltry relative to what they deal with.

"Instead of 6-3 your hours are now 6-to-6 3 days a week because we lost coverage in the evening. Tough noogies"

She gets paid 1/2 what those with 4 years of experience in our field get, and works on brains and spines.

[ryandrake]

I've worked roofing jobs, carrying heavy bags of shingles up ladders to the roof in >40C temperatures in the summer. I've cleaned filthy toilets. I've worked in a factory where the noise and hot stench of plastic injection molding machines would give you burning headaches for hours. These experiences don't invalidate the problems of tech workers, but they help me put them in perspective. Having the choice, I will choose sitting in an air conditioned office dealing with impossible deadlines and soul-sucking meetings any day of the week.

[amotinga]

same. any meeting is just 'me time' chilling for an hour.

[wombat-man]

yeah, I've known people working in Law and Banking. Lawyers at big firms work grueling hours until they get promoted enough.

One of my friend works at a major consulting firm, he knows they just grind new accounting grads until they burn out every. year. They just hire new ones the next year.

Banking analysts, actually pretty much everyone in banking is in what sounds like an unending grind. The exception I've heard is if you can somehow push through as an IB and make it into being a VP you can calm down.

So, yeah. Meetings are boring, the work is sometimes uninspired but things are pretty cushy for us right now.

[ipaddr]

Remember we are talking about senior developers. People with 15, 20, 25 years of experience. By that point in law you are not grinding.

[theshadowknows]

Yeah I’m a “sr architect” on an enterprise team where I work. I work from home in my home office and I get to see my wife all day or play with the dog. But at the same time I have dozens of people screaming at me over Teams it email or sometimes just calling me. Everything is always top priority. Everything is mission critical. Every project deadline is static and can’t be budged even a little bit. Don’t get me wrong. I’ve worked in factories before. And gas stations. And warehouses unloading trucks. I know what a hard day is like in a physical job earning a fraction of what I earn now. But at the end of the day it’s also about what it costs to earn that salary. And when sr leadership refuses to listen or understand something and when projects change wildly or have no direction…it might not be the same as unloading trucks of heavy boxes in the summer…but it really, really sucks to work so hard and build things that are genuinely cool only to have then be pulled into meetings the next day asking why you suck at your job.

[mental1896]

Relatively smaller problems are still problems. Rather than diminishing the significance of certain perspectives by calling them "not real", we should be acknowledging issues like this at all strata.

[pydry]

There are people out there that make your wife's problems look paltry too.

You can safely dismiss almost every problem in the world with your approach.

[kerbs]

Sure, but software engineers are at the top. There is no career where the reverse of your example is true.

"Our jobs aren't that bad – do you hear what they do to software engineers?"

[pydry]

Software engineers are not at the top. Billionaires are.

I earn a decent chunk but I'd still have to earn my current wage for about a million years and pay 0% taxes to have as much as Jeff Bezos does.

[jxidjhdhdhdhfhf]

Plenty of poor people around the world make way less than your wife and work the same or more hours. So, I guess tough noogies to your wife. If she's not literally starving then she has no right to complain ever about anything since starving people exist.

[kerbs]

The point I’m making is that software engineers have developed a habit of bemoaning about how their jobs don’t bring them to the peak of self-actualization.

But we have, by far, the most intellectually stimulating and flexible careers in the world. And nowadays, get paid ridiculous to boot.

So why is everyone complaining? What is everyone aspiring for?

[restalis]

"So why is everyone complaining? What is everyone aspiring for?"

I can only speak for myself here, but I know it's a valid point for many that followed the same path I did. The work I come about to do requires constant and intense mental activity on non-repetitive tasks. That takes a lot of energy. Twenty years ago, the computer engineering university faculty I've been through saw constantly the highest rate of dropout in its freshman and sophomore years, compared to any other kind of school out there. The touted reasons were mostly that there was simply too much work, that it was too grueling, too hard. The ones that prevailed weren't necessarily the smartest or the most diligent of all. They were, however, the most passioned about the computer engineering field. One had to have it to fuel the energy demand of the work necessary both in school years and after. The money is good, but that alone didn't seem to cut it. The work conditions in office are nice, but those weren't nor aren't what kept me in the game. (There were times when the space I worked in had no heating in the winter and was often smoked in, with me as non-smoker.) What I see in my peers' complaints nowadays is something that hits on the root of what made me wake up and continue every day. And the worst part is that the decision makers don't seem to be aware or caring. The mood is more like "I pay them, therefore I saddle them with whatever I see fit". So to answer you, what I aspire for? I aspire for a better fit, for both myself as someone good at something, which (from a self-development investment prospective) it makes sense to strive to do as much of it every day, as well as for the client benefiting my work/skills. I also think it's just ethical to rise awareness (even by complaints, if it has to be) when I see (my) resources misused and degrading of performance/potential in general.

[jxidjhdhdhdhfhf]

Working conditions can always get a little better. And if you don't ask for it, you won't get it.

[redisman]

Agreed. If you’re not working the literal one objectively worst job in the whole world you should never complain about anything

[alenmilk]

I think the problem here is motivation and keeping it up for so many years. Maybe there is a trick to it. Idk.

[adamredwoods]

Book & YouTube talks:

Dan Pink - Drive: The surprising truth about what motivates us

[dahfizz]

There are people who would do anything to make a FAANG salary. Acting like sitting in meetings is hard shows exactly how much of a bubble you are in.

Imagine explaining this to a dirt poor Hatian:

"You will have unimaginable wealth, but sometimes you have to sit in a meeting and do nothing. It's really hard"

[AQuantized]

The criteria was that is was the best job available in the world's wealthiest country, not that it was palatable to a someone living in a very poor country plagued with issues much lower on Maslow's hierarchy

[mywittyname]

Lots of American developers would love for a FAANG salary too. Total comp at a FAANG is now, what like $500-800k for a mid-senior position? Outside of a handful of areas in the USA, that same person would be earning, maybe $100k, no stock, and passable benefits.

[gmadsen]

Ok? what is your point? Are they physically and mentally capable of achieving that? How much do they desire that goal? Are they willing to sacrifice other things in their life for that? Its not like FAANG employees are picked out of a hat

[BurritoAlPastor]

Mid-senior is more like $300-400k.

[HeyLaughingBoy]

I really don't think that changes the point!

[throw8383833jj]

Working for FAANG simply isn't sustainable. First of all, it's very difficult to get a job there as an engineer. And even if you did, most people don't last very long: I think the average is like 2 years. And, even if you somehow manage to stay longer than 2 years, you're going to keep getting abused with high pressure work environment: I've heard several first hand accounts of this. and you can find evidence of the same, all over glass door if you read the reviews.

[comp_throw7]

It's not that difficult, FAANG (literally just those 5 companies) employ probably at least 5% of the SWEs in the country; add in all the other companies that pay comparable money and you're probably at 8-10%. Something that 10% of engineers can do (and, realistically, much more than 10% - how many engineers have never even tried to get in? At least half?) is, by definition, not "very difficult", relatively to the baseline level of difficulty inherent in the job.

I don't know why you think the average tenure across FAANGs is 2 years but it no doubt varies heavily by company. As another comment mentioned, Google has notoriously good WLB, and any individual team will be more predictive than the company as a whole. You'll hear plenty of "first-hand accounts" of high-pressure work environments because hundreds of thousands of engineers work at those companies!

[burntoutfire]

There's also plenty of people who refer to Google as a retirement home. It's a huge company, individual experiences will vary.

[masterof0]

^^^ Burrito is right, levels.fyi is your friend.

[gmadsen]

what a straw man you are making. It is meaningless to diminish the wants/needs of one by comparing to some arbitrary level of poverty in the world.

Everyone desires self actualization, and that is different for each person. If you are highly creative and technically competent, then yes, endless meetings are a detriment to that goal. A starving Hatian doesn't negate that.

[commandlinefan]

You don't even have to invoke a dirt poor Haitian, you can just invoke younger me: I thought then that if I even made half of what I make now, I'd want for nothing. And the reality is, I'm doing pretty well. But that doesn't mean there aren't some things that could stand to improve.

[jseban]

Yeah and there are many blue collar jobs where workers have way more integrity and respect, and where the managers are actually (held) accountable. Being a software developer is pretty spineless in comparison, even though you make more money and get to sit on your ass. I think it's unhealthy and causes burnout.

Edit: that's why people make FIRE exists and start physical jobs instead, become farmers etc, it's not as simple as a job being hard or easy, but stressful, irrational, alienating and in other ways unhealthy that doesn't necessarily make it obviously "hard".

[mywittyname]

I'd say my desire for a physical job post-engineering comes from an innate desire to build physical objects. Building software doesn't really press all the buttons.

I mean, I love my job, but I still plan to FIRE and become a machinist or something.

[redisman]

People make fire exits.. because they can. All jobs suck if you prize freedom. I’d probably do more gardening in fire but I could never fire on a similar load of work in a gardening job.

[burlesona]

I wouldn’t do that, I’d change jobs. That’s the awesome thing about working in software - we’re so in-demand, and there are so many jobs where you don’t just sit in meetings all day.

Alternatively I might try to get into management and see if I could make it more competent. I did that for a stretch at a Big Co, and I think I was able to really help my team to deep work and get a lot done. But then I was personally in meetings for roughly 40 hours a week and I got sick of that, so I changed jobs.

[theshadowknows]

It’s 12:15 pm and I’ve been working since 3:00 am trying to keep on top of deadlines but in my current role I’m an architect and I’m also the engineer that builds the things I design. And I’m also the only point of contact for testing. And I’m the only point of contact for troubleshooting. I don’t have an engineering or qa team..it’s just me by myself. And it crushed my soul every morning when I wake up. I’d quit right now if my wife didn’t require expensive and complicated medical treatment. I guess that’s more a problem with the medical system than anything. But even with savings we wouldn’t be able to last more than a year if we didn’t find similar income with similar insurance.

[edmundsauto]

If you truly could get 3x as much done, why not just go out and do it on your own? (Because all the stuff you don’t like actually has value, and you need someone to do it!)

[MrDresden]

My way to deal with this is to pocket the money, while planning my exit by way of launching my own products. Once one of them get some traction, I am out.