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by goldwind 1759 days ago
I wonder if this kind of thinking caused them to adapt to Christianity.
1 comments

By all intents and purposes Jesus and the early Christians were magicians themselves.
For a different perspective, Tolkien (in non-fiction writing) distinguishes two kinds of supernatural power: Magic, which is power over others and over the world, to manipulate and control; and on the other hand, supernatural power that is creative, enrichment with and for others, something that gives them hope in a dark world, and Tolkien associates Christ with the latter.

Also, we can observe that religions have survived and thrived, while 'magic' has few followers and little endurance through the generations.

>For a different perspective, Tolkien (in non-fiction writing) distinguishes two kinds of supernatural power: Magic, which is power over others and over the world, to manipulate and control; and on the other hand, supernatural power that is creative, enrichment with and for others, something that gives them hope in a dark world, and Tolkien associates Christ with the latter.

Common terms for this distinction are thaumaturgy (magic done as an extension of human will) versus theurgy (magic done through the evocation of divine power.) And there's a long, strange history within Judaism and Christianity of what we would now consider "magic" (demonology, necromancy, talismans, etc.) attempting exert direct control over others and the world. Ironically, we know such practices often involved the clergy, because many of the rituals discovered in occult books involved Latin prayers and ecclesiastical elements, and few other classes would have been literate enough to write these things down.

This brings up another axis of magical classification, between "ceremonial" magic, such as what John Dee and other "mages" were up to (think wizards and books and sacred circles and such), and "folk" magic (think witches messing with herbs in the woods), the latter of which was often elements of pagan belief carried over into a Christianized culture.

The lines between "religion" and "magic" have always been a bit blurry, and mostly a matter of culture and politics. One person's sorcery is another person's religion and so forth.

Is there a term for magic that would be similar to proto-sciences or superstition? Things like alchemy, magical geometry, psychic abilities, qigong, etc. that don't necessarily directly involve a spiritual being at all?
I might go with "natural magic" or maybe "psionics" in a modern context. I'm not a scholar, my interest in this stuff is as a fan of folklore, but AFAIK historically speaking the distinction you're looking for didn't really exist. Separating the supernatural from the religious is a post-Enlightenment phenomenon influenced by the spiritualist movements of the 19th century and commercial fantasy media like RPGs.

For example, alchemy and sacred geometry were deeply rooted in Christian and hermetic philosophy (themselves influenced by Platonism) - and as much about understanding God and purifying the soul as mathematics and proto-chemistry. I don't know anything about qigong but I'm just assuming the same or similar applies.

I'd suggest the Youtube channels Esoterica[0] and Modern Hermeticist[1] for some further research.

[0]https://www.youtube.com/c/ESOTERICAchannel

[1]https://www.youtube.com/c/TheModernHermeticist/videos

How so?
Because they performed miracles. If you argue that those were real and magic is not, then that's just a matter of perspective.
I think it's more likely that those miracles were invented for propaganda reasons in the period between the crucification and when the New Testament was finalized. For instance there's a whole lot of apocryphal texts (e.g. [1]) about Jesus as a child where he performed all sorts of miracles, but I guess those were considered a bit too over the top even for 1st millenium standards and thus hadn't been included in the official Bible.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas

In Jesus' time and region there were miracle workers by the hundreds, and he was just seen as another one of them. They travelled form village to village performing miracles in exchange for, I guess, money and food. If I'm not mistaken, on what I read about the historical Jesus, the difference was that he didn't charge for the miracles, but I could be wrong here, don't remember much.
By the time Paul was writing a few years after the crucifixion, the Jesus movement already believed God raised him from the dead, which made him the exalted messiah in their minds. So it's not too far a stretch to think they believed he also performed miracles while alive. In the Hebrew scriptures/OT, Jewish prophets performed miracles. Why not Jesus?

In the canonical gospel accounts, God's spirit enters Jesus when John baptizes him. Then he starts his ministry which includes miracle working. The disciples did the same thing in Acts after receiving the spirit. There is an even a false prophet (from the Christian POV), Simon Magus, who could perform some miracles.

There was widespread belief in miracle working in the ancient world. It meant the miracle worker had been empowered by the gods, or was a son of a god (or Yahweh in the case of Jesus).

Historical Jesus is just a few sentences by Flavius Joseph, a couple of references in the Talmud of Jerusalem. All the other sources are Christian.

So we lack sources to say if he was considered a magician or not to be honest.

> a whole lot of apocryphal texts (e.g. [1])

> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas

How does the cited source differ from apocryphal texts; how is it more than a modern apocryphal text on a modern medium?

The distinction that I would make is that Christians view miracles as an intelligent being choosing to temporarily circumvent the laws of nature. That is in contrast to rituals or magical substances which are believed to directly influence the laws of nature.

From a theological perspective (which may not be the same as how a given lay Christian thinks about things) prayer is simply asking God to perform a miracle for you in the same way that you might ask a human to do a favor for you. Similarly, Christian ritual is seen as intended to help humans have faith, not as having any magical properties in of themselves.