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by simondotau 1770 days ago
Photographs of your naked child in the bath are not illegal, are not CSAM, and are not going to be in the NCMEC's database.
2 comments

NCMEC's CSAM database already includes images that are not necessarily illegal. If _your particular_ photos have been flagged in the past, they may well be part of the database.
> NCMEC's CSAM database already includes images that are not necessarily illegal.

How could this be the case? If it's been determined to be CSAM then it is, by definition, illegal.

If it were true that the database is likely to contain legal material, how would we possibly know about it, given that the contents of the database are secret?

> How could this be the case? If it's been determined to be CSAM then it is, by definition, illegal.

Certain images are CSAM by _context_. They do not necessarily require those within the image to be abused, but rather that the image at one time or another was traded alongside other CSAM.

> If it were true that the database is likely to contain legal material, how would we possibly know about it, given that the contents of the database are secret?

Tools like Spotlight [0] make use of the database, so certain well-known images are known to flag. Such as Nirvana's controversial cover for Nevermind.

[0] https://www.wired.com/story/how-facial-recognition-fighting-...

> Certain images are CSAM by _context_. They do not necessarily require those within the image to be abused, but rather that the image at one time or another was traded alongside other CSAM.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, how can we know this is actually true? Every description of the NCMEC database's contents that I've seen is incredibly vague, and as of 2019 it seems like there were fewer than[1] 4 million total hashes available. I would think that if it genuinely did include innocent photos of people's kids, the number would be much higher.

> ...certain well-known images are known to flag. Such as Nirvana's controversial cover for Nevermind.

I've heard this multiples times now, but I've never been able to find any evidence of it actually happening. The only instance I could find was one where Facebook removed[2] that Nirvana cover once for containing nudity.

1. https://inews.co.uk/news/technology/uk-us-collaborate-crack-...

2. https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/jul/28/facebook-nirva...

Interesting random data point, I just checked Apple Music and the Nevermind cover art is not censored.
If you're sending other people photos of your children that are explicit enough to prompt someone bring them to the attention of child safety groups like NCMEC, and they look at it and agree it's worth their time to investigate, the first you hear of it isn't likely to be after it eventually comes full circle through Apple's CSAM processes.

Remember, this isn't a porn detector strapped to a child detector.

Step 1: Get copies of pictures of targets kid in bath from phone/SNS

Step 2: Manipulate pictures so that hash collides with CSAM

Step 3: Get pictures back on targets phone so they get scanned.

I don't have the skills or understanding of how the hashes are created but would this be possible?

Hypothetically that's possible, although all three steps you listed are exceedingly non-trivial. The notion that an attacker could pull off two of those steps let alone three is borderline fanciful. In addition, their target must also qualifies with the necessary prerequisites:

• has an iPhone;

• has children;

• took photos of their children which could be mistaken for CSAM by a sloppy reviewer;

• is of sufficiently high importance to justify the effort.

And after that insane effort, all you've done is inconvenience your target for a little while until child safety people investigate your family situation and discover that the photos which got flagged were not actually CSAM.

Immediately after the investigation process discovers the hash fraud, Apple will immediately start delving into exactly how their hash algorithm failed in this instance, improving it to mitigate this exploit. So this target better be worth it!

If this was a plausible exploit, surely it would have already happened to people with Android phones since Google has been doing pretty much the exact same scanning of customer images for over five years. (The only difference with what Apple is now doing is where the hashing is performed—but this makes no functional difference to the viability of your hypothetical exploit.)