[spiffydave]

Those in power fear anything out of their control. See what's happening with the infrastructure bill and crypto as the latest example.

On the other hand, us little people should support anything that gives the average person a fighting chance against the rich and powerful.

[wwweston]

Cryptocurrency is more likely to become a powerful tool to the rich and powerful with even less accountability than there is now than it is to become an incredible boon to the "average person." There's a difference between distributed and decentralized. Money and power can buy a lot of the distribution.

And what, exactly, do you think you're fighting?

Inflation or inflationary policies? Places to park money that are better than bits or gold have existed for a long time.

Surveillance? An indelible ledger has its downsides here.

Technology is more often a magnifier of existing human dynamics rather than a qualitative change. Especially one that seeks to replace existing tech. If you think it's going to produce a fundamental change, why is this different?

[SantalBlush]

I think it's the new sales pitch for pyramid schemes: "Buy and hodl, and together we'll fight the machine!"

Well, we'll need a lot of help from the likes of Elon Musk and Jack Dorsey, but it's totally all about helping the little guy.

[spiffydave]

Cool story bro!

If you don't agree that's fine. Don't buy. If other people buy and have a different opinion it doesn't hurt you at all.

[sgt101]

>us little people should support anything that gives the average person a fighting chance against the rich and powerful.

I don't think that I have a chance in heaven or hell to navigate a completely opaque ecosystem where wash trading sets the value minute to minute and the mechanisms of realizing that value are run to make money off the realisation.

[iratewizard]

Even in crypto, wash trading is illegal. It is also significantly more prohibitively expensive to wash trade a security with a market cap of $750T. If you were to try wash trading from a country where it's legal, you might be able to get away with it. But at that point you might as well wash trade in forex.

[jorblumesea]

Jackson Palmer, creator of Doge Coin, summarizes why he thinks this is a false narrative:

https://twitter.com/ummjackson/status/1415353986392072196?re...

I tend to agree. There are legitimate use cases, but overall it's unclear whether "the little guys" are really the main use case or how much the average Nigerian (or anyone else except the ultra wealthy) might benefit.

Now if your point is that some wealthy elites want to take power away from other wealthy elites, I'd say this is a more accurate take on the situation. For example, being able to circumvent taxes, or being able to manipulate markets on a global scale.

[spiffydave]

Anyone can buy crypto. Not understanding how it's only for wealthy elites.

And Mr. Palmer is out of crypto. Good for him. And the solution to reign in fiat-based crony capitalism is what?

I 100% agree with the premise that the ultra-wealthy are finally getting on board with crypto and will pollute it with the same manipulation they've used in other markets. But that still doesn't mean it can't be used by the average person to build wealth if done correctly.

[jorblumesea]

Can everyone just tweet and move markets? Does the average person need hard to trace currencies to evade taxes? Does the average person have stakes in large exchanges, or stand to gain anything by a loose (read: non-existent) regulatory environment?

The average person really doesn't need many of the use cases that crypto provides, as of today. Most of the "normal people use cases" have yet to materialize. I really struggle with this narrative, because it just doesn't reflect any sense of reality. I own crypto, I heavily participate in the space, and yet I don't get people that think a mother of 3 needs to own Eth in any practical sense.

[beaner]

Funny cuz this article describes a whole country starting to find "normal people use cases" for crypto.

[jorblumesea]

The vast majority of the article focuses on speculative trading, not day to day activities. There's a small paragraph on paying employees, but really it's just the mismanaged finances of Nigeria providing that need. Replace "Bitcoin" with "USD" or "seashells" and it's effectively the same thing. Sure, if you're the 1-2 countries in the world with 200% daily inflation, it makes sense. The vast majority of crypto holders (and users here) come from relatively stable western countries with strong regulatory environments with stable central banks.

It's this narrative of "rich western citizens" talking about "real world use cases" that completely diverge from their day to day which is the ultimate irony. Think of the poor Africans! Said no one from Coinbase or Binance. Think of the use cases! Said the wealthy SWE speculatively trading shitcoins, x5 leverage to the gills.

There are real world use cases, but likely if you're posting here on your macbook, they do not apply to you. People don't give a shit about venezuela or Nigeria, it's just greed.

[beaner]

Did we read the same article? The theme to me seemed to be around people using it to store wealth and keep businesses running despite bank account closures - not speculation.

[0x000000001]

Why does anyone care what Jackson Palmer thinks?

[wwweston]

Why does anyone care what commentors on HN think?

Why not read the actual Twitter thread and see if the argument has merit? Or engage the summary that the GP brought into the thread instead of pretending the only relevant point in play is the authority of Palmer?

And finally, why not acknowledge that maybe someone who created a coin that took off might have some worthwhile insight?

[spiffydave]

I did read it. Not super impressed, but glad he has the freedom to say what he wants.

Yes, crypto is being manipulated and distorted by the wealthy and powerful. It's sad to see. But it's still beneficial to the average person to have other options outside of the current system.

[hanniabu]

Because it supports their bias that crypto is nothing but scams and has no utility

[spiffydave]

Yeah, and Mr. Palmer evidently has his own political axe to grind. Good for him. Glad he can say what he wants.

[quadcore]

Well apparently it's taken people out of poverty in Nigeria. Now I agree it's a tax problem. Coulnt smart contracts solve that?

[SwimSwimHungry]

Apparently? There is no real proof this has brought mostly normal people in Nigeria out of poverty, at least at large enough numbers to be believed. This is just some yarn spun up by proponents of cryptocurrency to rally more to their cause.

I'd be shocked if most people in Nigeria even have a personal computer and reliable internet. That's how impoverished most of them are.

[exdsq]

> I'd be shocked if most people in Nigeria even have a personal computer and reliable internet. That's how impoverished most of them are.

I did a little research on this for a job last year and internet access/mobile phone ownership numbers are far higher than I expected. Mobile payments are already a very common form of transaction in Africa. The Gates Foundation mentioned that one of the big issues with their current infrastructure is middle-men fees when talking about remittances between African countries through to mobile credit, so crypto is actually a strong candidate to improve that area too.

[endisneigh]

Why do people use Africa and Nigeria interchangeably?

[exdsq]

In this context they have similar mobile and internet coverage (excluding South Africa)

[spiffydave]

Nigeria has a cell phone adoption rate of around 50% currently. People can trade crypto, do banking, money transfers, etc. on a cell phone. The idea that a desktop computer is required is a very old-school mindset. Similar to your "everyone in Nigeria is impoverished" comment.

Also, it's not about getting rich. It's about surviving when the government has all power to freeze your bank accounts, inflate the currency, etc.

[beaner]

Google: "what percentage of nigerians have cell phones"

Answer: "While Nigeria's mobile penetration rate is lower than developed markets, it is higher than the average across sub-Saharan Africa, standing at around 50% as of 2018, and estimated to rise to 130 million or about 60%-65% of the total population by 2025."

Also: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Which, in this case, is to say that it may be that "there is no real proof that this has brought mostly normal people in nigeria out of poverty." But did you RTFA? It talks about how crypto is helping normal people. So there isn't evidence against this idea either. Maybe we should try to find out, rather than be dismissive.

[bko]

Can I have an ELI5 on the infra bill and crypto? I keep seeing it come up on my twitter feed and I read a few articles, but it seems to be moving very fast. Is it just about taxes and squeezing crypto owners w/ realized gains for taxes?

[spiffydave]

Here's my rough explanation:

Provisions were added into the bill that would require "know your customer" type requirements and taxation of crypto exchanges but were written so poorly that the requirements could be extrapolated to crypto miners, staking, etc.

This is what happens when people who don't understand the technology in the first place try to write legislation at the last minute to insert into a bill that has nothing to do with crypto.

Amendments have been proposed to try and clarify the bill, but there are multiple amendments that are "worse" or "better" for crypto. Guess which one Janet Yellen is pushing? (after receiving millions from big banks for "speaking engagements."

[wmf]

No, they say it's about taxes but there's much more in it. The bill appears to require everyone in crypto (exchanges, miners, stakers, maybe even software developers) to do KYC on every transaction. This either requires massive technical changes or more likely all those entities would leave the US.

[bko]

So if I send you Bitcoin without KYC, I'm breaking the law? And it would be trivial to detect if I ever crossed a major exchange

[wmf]

Honestly we don't know. The original bill is vague and there are two competing amendments that are being debated. It will take some time for this to shake out.

[danmaz74]

A lot of people think that the power of the state, even in Western democracies, favors the rich and powerful against the little guy, through corruption and regulatory capture. What they don't realise is that, even in the much less than perfect state of our democracies and rule of law, the little guy is much more protected than any anarcho capitalistic system you could possibly create, where the rich and powerful won't even need to corrupt any officials: they will just use their personal police (or army) to enforce their power direcly, a bit like in the far west, or possibly like some kind of cyberpunk neo-medieval future.

[spiffydave]

I think your argument is a very nice strawman. No one is endorsing an "anarcho capitalistic system" here.

What we're saying is that having an alternative to fiat is some people's only hope when the government can close your accounts, inflate the currency, etc.

[danmaz74]

A world where governments aren't able to forcibly close, and more importantly, impound your bank accounts even if you're the head of a Mafia family, or a corporation doing something that the law deems a corporation shouldn't do, looks to me like a very serious step towards anarcho capitalism - which, by the way, is the stated goal of not so few cryptocurrency fundamentalists.

[ajkdhcb2]

It's already like that, and it always has been. The most powerful people have immense power because they are inside governments or have corrupted them. At a level below that, they have funds in hidden offshore shell accounts, accounts under other people's names, physical assets.

Further, like encryption, cryptocurrencies are not something that you can ban in an effective way no matter how desperately you want to, so you will just have to deal with it.

The most powerful people will always have privacy and be above laws. The only way you can equalise it is to give some of those abilities to the little people

[danmaz74]

This is exactly where we disagree. Imho giving more and more people an easy way to undermine democracy and rule of law will result in the richer having even more power than now, and the little guys with even less recourse than now.

[ajkdhcb2]

I don't understand how you can look at the mafia, cartels, China and Russia then say that. No matter what you do, there is NO recourse or transparency AT ALL for those corrupt people in power. The little guy is completely powerless. Cash is becoming phased out. Central Bank Digital Currencies are coming. China already shows that the government can cut people off from life and give you time limits to spend your digital money. I find it impossible to understand your point of view