[carcostthrow]

>And everyone should stop driving fossil vehicles starting now. [...] There’s no excuse not to.

Isn't there?

Right now for me to own a Ford Mach E, a Tesla Model 3 or a RAV4 Prime is $3400 to $3700 per year for comprehensive insurance, $1400 a year for liability only. My SUV right now costs $1100 a year to insure comprehensive, but even a 2021 Acura NSX or Jaguar F-Pace is only $1400 for the same level of insurance that I have right now.

I only spend about $1200 a year on gasoline for the SUV and another $200 for regular maintenance. So right out the gate, assuming electricity is free and tire rotations are free, I'm already looking at least $900/yr increase in operating expense.

And then there's the upfront; the above is on top of the $10,000 to $20,000 more I'd have to spend to buy an EV vs a comparably sized and equipped ICE. And an additional $1500 to $2000 to have my garage accommodate charging a car, assuming main panel doesn't need upgrading and only installing a 240V circuit.

Right now it's a detached garage with a single 120v to it, so it's retrenching and installation of new conduit and wire, installing a new sub panel in the garage, and rewiring everything. Not going to count the cost of a level 2 DC charger (Chevrolet and Kia are offering one as an incentive for purchase). Main uncertainty is whether or not the main panel would need to be upgraded.

If I didn't have a garage, I'd also have to be super concerned about charging stations though. You leave an extension cord more then once out overnight, it will get stolen; the copper in it is worth a dollar or two. I can't imagine how fast a $200 charging cable with $10 of scrap copper in it wouldn't get swiped. It's unfortunately common here, there's quite a few sections of street where the street lights have been knock out for months now due to copper thieves ripping it out of the conduit. A nearby truck depot gets the copper wire cut from the trucks battery systems sitting there overnight every few months.

So... yeah. There's my excuse. Money.

[NotSammyHagar]

120v over night will add about 45 miles of range to your typical tesla. Most people drive less than 20 miles a day, so you always start out with a full tank. When I go skiing, I drive 120 miles, so I come back with a lot of range depleted, but it charges up the next few days. On the rare occasions over the past 8 years when I needed to go a long distance, I just use the super charger in my town, although once I went to a pay place that has 220v and 40 amps (so instead of ~3.5 miles of range per house, I added 20 miles of range per hour). What doesn't work with 120v regular power outlet charging? If you drive 250 miles and spend 5 minutes and then need to drive 200 more miles. That is pretty rare.

[jws]

In 18 months of use, I’ve done all except three charges on my regular old 120v outlet in the garage. I just plug in at night when I go under 60% charge, usually every few days.

I ordered the adapter, outlet, and new wire to move an unused electric dryer service to the garage as soon as I got the car, but haven’t bothered to install them. It just isn’t necessary. (And I dislike taking the face cover off the main breaker box, nothing rational, I just don’t like being that close to the live circuits. If I need to charge a lot overnight, it’s a 30 minute job to install the service.)

For the upfront cost… I had been waiting for the little Jeep pickup truck, but when it came out and I got done adding the basic functional packages it was well up in the Tesla price range. (I’m keeping an elderly F250 out of the crushers for my occasional pickup truck needs, but I could just as easily rent one from the big box hardware store when I need it for less than I pay in insurance on the F250.)

[quickthrowman]

> I ordered the adapter, outlet, and new wire to move an unused electric dryer service to the garage as soon as I got the car, but haven’t bothered to install them. It just isn’t necessary. (And I dislike taking the face cover off the main breaker box, nothing rational, I just don’t like being that close to the live circuits. If I need to charge a lot overnight, it’s a 30 minute job to install the service.

You could do all of the work except for landing the circuit and pay an electrician for an hour to terminate the circuit for you.

[carcostthrow]

The main issue is that it's a single 120V circuit for everything in the garage, including the garage door opener. Assuming you open the garage door (say with a remote garage door opener) while the car is charging, it will trip the breaker in the basement. IIRC your average garage door opening motor uses 500W to 700W while in operation.

So at the least I need to install a second circuit. But the cost of installation is mostly tied into labor rather then material since it involves bringing out a trenching machine out. And the cost difference between just 1 extra 120V circuit and a full blown 240V service with subpanel is significant, but not bad enough for me to think it's makes sense to penny pinch there.

Edit: Well in theory you could also have a receiver and relay that cuts off the charging to the car before initiating powering the garage door motor. That said I don't think it's worth the hassle... at minimum that's two electrical mechanical relays for the 120V lines, some sort of RF receiver for the car, a controller for the relays and to probably some way to signal the garage door itself (replacement for the button inside maybe), and way for the controller to state of the door itself so that it doesn't cut power at the wrong time. Certainly hackable but I doubt I could build it reliable without way more money and time spent on it.

[TheSpiceIsLife]

> it will trip the breaker in the basement

Will it? It’d depend on the breaker and load rating of the wire run to the garage.

I can draw 6kw from one 240v, breaker, so about 25 amps, for a few minutes before it trips from thermal overload.

I load tested a new outlet that was wired on the same circuit, with five devices plugged in, kettle, pressure cooker, slow cooker, fan heater, and hair drier for good measure.

The breaker should trip before the wire is damaged, it did.

[gambiting]

>>$3700 per year for comprehensive insurance,

Bit of an aside - how is American insurance so stupidly expensive. Here in UK I have a brand new Volvo XC60 PHEV, £60k, 400bhp car, in one of the highest insurance groups(like group 45 out of 50), I'm 30 years old and my fully comprehensive insurance is £400 a year. That's including 20 million liability limit, legal cover, courtesy vehicle, key cover.....etc etc.

Yeah when I was 21 my insurance was £2000 a year on some crappy old econobox, but in general once you turn 25 the insurance falls down rapidly. On my previous Mercedes AMG I paid about £500 a year for fully comprehensive, aged 26.

[withinboredom]

It cost me a simple written exam (free) and a driving test (free) and then about $25USD for the actual license when I was 16. How much does it cost in the UK? If the barrier to drive is low, you end up with people driving around that got a 70% on the written test (lowest passing score) and a 70% on the driving test driving around doing stupid things. It drives up insurance considerably.

[gambiting]

Uhm, in the UK you can only pay for the test if you want, no actual training is strictly required. So....like £99 or there about?

But of course majority of people pay for training because they want to learn somewhere, and not everyone has parents willing to risk the family car. Surely even in US people pay for training and there's more to the cost than just the $25 test fee?

[withinboredom]

Most families in the states have more than one car, so there’s less risk to teaching your kids how to drive. There are schools though, but I never had that (neither did my wife, apparently). My dad was an insane teacher though. He’d have me slam the brakes in the middle of an empty highway to learn how to stop at-speed. I’ve never been in an accident (knock on wood) but I’ve seen more than my fair share of deadly accidents happen right in front of me.

[perl4ever]

>how is American insurance so stupidly expensive

It varies; you can't make a categorical statement like that based on random stuff you read on the Internet.

My insurance is the equivalent of £430 and I have nearly the maximum liability coverage and comprehensive on a current year model car.

[gambiting]

Thank you - yeah that confirms what I suspected - that at least for some people the insurance isn't $3000 a year.

[frosted-flakes]

Americans drive a lot more than Europeans, that's probably why. For comparison, I'm in Canada in my mid-20s and only pay CAD$700 per year, same as you (clean record).

[gambiting]

You have to specify how many miles per year you're going to drive - that £400 a year insurance is declared for 10k miles. How many more do Americans drive? 20k? 30k? Aren't those very silly numbers quickly? I thought even in America people drive no more than 20-30 miles a day on average, no?

[perl4ever]

I always thought of the US "standard" being 15K miles, although before covid-19, I averaged more like 10K, and now around 5K.

Obviously it depends on your commute, and I've always prioritized a very short commute.

Also, some people lease and have mileage limits. I have the impression that leasing is more popular in the UK, so that might affect the average.

[PhantomGremlin]

That's including 20 million liability limit

This is the most noticeable difference between US and UK.

Cars here generally have perhaps $300,000 liability, perhaps $500,000. I have $1,000,000 but larger number is covered by an additional "umbrella" policy that includes liability for multiple cars and also my house.

I imagine there are much greater limits for the likes of Bill Gates. But not commonly for the ordinary 99%. Also, despite auto insurance being legally required, probably 10% or 20% don't have it. They don't care, they have no assets, so they're "judgement proof". There are never any serious criminal consequences for this.

Ordinary people can protect themselves against uninsured drivers by adding additional coverage for that to their own insurance policy. In effect, if you have an accident with an uninsured driver, your own policy pays out whatever liability that driver would owe you. This added coverage is not all that expensive.

[_ph_]

Here in Germany, liability limits are usually much higher. 100 million isn't unheard of. The reason certainly is partly advertising, but also because some freak accidents have caused these amounts of costs. A few millions are not uncommon for bad accidents where for example semis with delicate load are involved.

The most severe damage caused so far in a single car accident in Germany is about 30 Million €: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiehltal_bridge

Fortunately, they were finally able to repair the bridge and didn't have to completely rebuild it, which would have been vastly more expensive.

[gambiting]

The minimum required from any insurance in the EU is €5M in 3rd party liability, no vehicle insurance can offer less. The ones offering 20/50/100M are doing it mostly for advertising, there's no appreciable difference in cost.

[360walk]

I would guess it's because your insurance pays someone's medical bills if you hit them in the US, which can be >>> the cost of replacing a car even if it's a relatively minor injury.

[thangalin]

My ROI write up on RAV4 vs. KONA EV, but general enough for other vehicle comparisons:

https://dave.autonoma.ca/blog/2019/08/06/typesetting-markdow...

> assuming main panel doesn't need upgrading and only installing a 240V circuit.

A Load Miser can split the dryer circuit; charging happens overnight, so no usage conflicts. It was about $1,500 USD for my house to run a line from the attic. YMMV, but probably less expensive.

> You leave an extension cord more then once out overnight, it will get stolen

Vancouver is experimenting with curbside chargers.

https://vancouver.ca/streets-transportation/curbside-electri...

My ROI is now 7 years. The feeling of being off fossil fuels is priceless. (British Columbia is about 80% renewable.)

[carcostthrow]

>A Load Miser can split the dryer circuit; charging happens overnight, so no usage conflicts. It was about $1,500 USD for my house to run a line from the attic. YMMV, but probably less expensive.

I'm not sure why that would make any difference.

>Vancouver is experimenting with curbside chargers.

Maybe; I'd be concerned about someone cutting the cables for scrap copper here. I don't know if richer Vancouver suburbs would have to worry about such a thing.

[the_biot]

You're forgetting the initial layout -- that's a car starting at $70000. Who the hell pays that for a car, when half that gets you a car just as nice but running on gasoline?

I haven't bought a new car in ages, but my limit was, and remains, €30k. As long as electric cars cost double what comparable fossil fuel cars cost, with half the range, I don't see any electric revolution happening.

[gambiting]

>>Who the hell pays that for a car, when half that gets you a car just as nice but running on gasoline?

Does it? What example do you have in mind? Because the only one I can think of is perhaps the E-Tron compared to the Audi Q5, and I'd argue that to reach the "half" mark you'd get a Q5 that has barely any options fitted in, while the E-Tron will come packed with tech. And then yes, there is the Tesla Model S which is absolutely not worth the money they are asking, but it's an exception not the rule. There's more and more EV vehicles where there isn't a non-EV equivalent for half the price.

[the_biot]

The example I had in mind was the Volvo XC40. Gasoline model starts at €30k, electric model at €59K. More often than not you pay a huge premium for electric cars. I think the cheapest right now is the Nissan Leaf, but that's still a tiny car for a lot of money.

I just don't think electric cars make financial sense at all right now. All those car manufacturers saying they won't be making ICE cars within < 5 years anymore must know something I don't, but I don't see who's going to be paying that premium in the low/middle end.

[gambiting]

Yeah that's fair enough - the electric XC40 is a stupidly expensive car. I still think it's not exactly a fair comparison, as the cheapest XC40 is a 100bhp 3 cylinder petrol, while the electric XC40 is a 400bhp all wheel drive car. That alone would command a large premium even in an ICE car, no?

But yeah, I'm thinking more about the cars like the MG ZS EV, which I actually put a deposit down on last year(and cancelled due to coronavirus and working from home, but I test drove it and was 100% willing to buy it) - at £25k it was very affordable for a full EV, with loads of space inside.

And then remember that all manufacturers always start with the most expensive models first because that's where the money is, but more and more cars are arriving form various manufacturers. ID.3 from Volkswagen is already approaching affordable prices in lower specs, but there is the ID.2 coming. And if I were to buy a second car as a runaround now, I'd happily buy a £12k second hand e-Up, it's more than enough for driving around and will cost nearly nothing to use.

[_ph_]

But that isn't the case. The Jaguar in the article is undoubtedly expensive, but a Tesla Model 3 currently starts in Germany at €35k. Basically the same price as comparable ICE vehicles. And that is not even counting in the savings on operating the car.

[ReactiveJelly]

My excuse is that I just don't drive much. So yeah, money. The incentives don't favor me selling my good-condition low-mileage ICE for a used high-mileage hybrid, even though I do want one.

If the government passes a carbon tax (or just cuts gasoline subsidies) then the math may change and push me over.

But to avoid harming poor people, they'd have to atomically pass an increase in welfare while making gasoline more expensive for the middle class. So it's politically difficult.

[njarboe]

Or just pass all of the revenues back to the people with a straight refund equal to (tax collected)/(number of people)

[hamandcheese]

Your insurance sounds… exceptionally high. My Model 3 is about $1500/year for comprehensive coverage.

[carcostthrow]

I don't claim to understand the reasoning behind it, these were just the quotes I got shopping around. I never imagined that a $180,000 hybrid supercar would be cheaper to insure the PHEV version of a family oriented CUV but but here we are.

[yummybear]

Yeah in my country a new electric car is about 2x years salary. We’d love to switch but that’s a lot of money.

[adrianN]

Are new ICE cars affordable? EV don't cost 4x more than ICEs, do they?

[lb1lf]

-Not the OP, but the situation in Norway is that new EVs are incredibly competitively priced compared to ICE vehicles, as we tax the latter to high heaven while the former are exempt from just about any tax. This is how it ought to be to speedily increase EV market share.

However, if your personal finances suggest a used vehicle is the way to go, your options are rather limited, and will be for a few more years until the current EVs start trickling down. Current 2nd hand EV offerings mostly are Leafs and eGolfs, with a generous helping of Teslas (still rather pricey) on top.

If you need a large-ish family car and cannot afford a new EV, you'll be driving an ICE for a few more years - more if the authorities start taxing EVs to bring them more in line with ICE levels, boosting 2nd hand prices.

[saiya-jin]

Can easily be, if you compare comparable. I buy BMWs for cca 25% of the price of new (that means 6-7 years old and up to 100k km). Last one lasted 11 years and still counting. Maintenance costs are almost 0, apart from mandatory stuff (oil, brakes & pads, wheels every +-5 years).

Hell will freeze sooner than we will be buying a new car - its just such a stupid waste of money, when the price drops so rapidly and you still get 95% of the new car. ICE cars, especially diesels, just age so well compared to electric ones. I know we will be buying our next car as used ICE, for next maybe 10 years. And so do people around us, in richest country in Europe - Switzerland.

Electric car on level to say well equipped BMW 5 wagon series is what... Tesla model S? Not really, BMW has much higher quality of literally everything that matters in car while sporting much bigger trunk (necessity with kids and active lifestyle).

One should not ignore the price point - most of the world simply can't afford buying electric cars. Its great that western democracies will lead this transition, but when considering whole human population this is a tiny sliver at the moment.

[adrianN]

Well, if you compare used cars of course ICEs are much cheaper, because the market is so much larger. That+s why I asked for new. It seemed surprising to me that you'd even consider a new car when an EV is that expensive compared to income.

[saiya-jin]

Well, its simple - I am considering a car. Don't care about underlying technology as much as: initial purchase price, required yearly car insurance & taxes, and ongoing costs of replacements/repairs due to its usage/aging.

After that comes comfort, space, practicality, engagement in driving (aka fun). And somewhere after that, noble discussions about ICE vs electric vs hydrogen etc. So far its a nobrainer. Maybe in 10 years things will be different, I'll vote with my wallet then.

[zamfi]

> You leave an extension cord more then once out overnight, it will get stolen; the copper in it is worth a dollar or two. I can't imagine how fast a $200 charging cable with $10 of scrap copper in it wouldn't get swiped. It's unfortunately common here, there's quite a few sections of street where the street lights have been knock out for months now due to copper thieves ripping it out of the conduit

Yikes! Where do you live, San Francisco? /s

[carcostthrow]

Fair bit east and a quite a bit more north.

[rcurry]

Same here. Most of my cross country trips are in an ‘08 corvette. It gets about 26 mpg if you leave it on cruise, and takes about 8 minutes to fill up. And I can also stop wherever I want for a nice meal or whatever. Combined with zero maintenance because it’s built for about 10x as hard as you’d ever think of driving it, it works out just fine. I think electric vehicles are awesome, but it’s pretty hard to beat gasoline in terms of power for your money.

[thioordc]

All good points! However one thing EVs have is much cheaper maintenance! Having no oil changes adds up in savings.

[carcostthrow]

Already factored into the $200/yr maintenance. Oil changes at dealerships nowadays are essentially loss leaders for them; $75 to $80 for full synthetic change, oil filter replacement and windshield wiper fluid top off, and most include shuttle service nowadays to and from the dealership itself.

Only other items that are ICE specific I can think of off the top of my head is engine air filter and fluid changes for the transmission and transfer case. Most of the other maintenance is the same AFAIK.

Like I said though, the insurance difference for me kills whatever savings there are from lack of oil changes by a wide margin, even before factoring in higher upfront.

[thioordc]

Yep yep that insurance rate is nasty! I just think it’s interesting that oil changes are slowly disappearing!

[chrisseaton]

> Having no oil changes adds up in savings.

You probably don’t need to change your oil as often as you are, if it’s registering as an expense at all.

Check what the manufacturer actually says - for example my manufacturer says don’t bother changing for two years. Lots of Americans driving the exact same cars change their oil every three months for no reason.

[watt]

Actually this is exactly about expenses you are not consciously "registering", but they are real, and they add up. A daily coffee is not "registering" as well, but it's massive amount of money if you consider how much you spent in a year.

[aix1]

Would you mind quantifying how the coffee argument applies to this discussion, which is about oil change?

For example, here in the UK the average cost of oil and filter change (if you pay someone to do it rather than doing it yourself) is £102 [1]. Done every other year, this amounts to £51 p.a., which is less than a typical tank of fuel [2].

[1] https://www.fixter.co.uk/blog/how-much-is-an-oil-and-filter-...

[2] https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/full-tank-of-...

[chrisseaton]

> but they are real, and they add up

But that was the point - the requirement to change your oil that often is not real, and so it does not add up.

[BenjiWiebe]

Also, check what the oil manufacturer says. Some oils will last longer than others.

[Hamuko]

Oil changes are pretty much the least costly part of my car's maintenance. Brakes, suspension and tyres cost far more and I can't imagine that heavy EVs are any better on any of those.

[adrianN]

Regenerative braking means that your regular brakes are used much less.

[Hamuko]

Not using your brakes isn't actually that good for the brake discs, since they can rust with the lack of use.

[frosted-flakes]

No less than with a manual transmission car. I went 5 years before replacing the pads on my last car, with 150k km driven—not because they were worn, but because they were falling apart.

[adrianN]

I haven't driven an EV yet, but from what I hear regenerative breaking is much stronger than engine breaking with a manual car and can essentially bring the car to a stop in city traffic.

[frosted-flakes]

I drive a diesel. Back when I had a regular freeway commute, I would regularly come to a complete stop at the end of freeway exits without touching the brake pedal, just for fun (last few km/h I used the handbrake). And one time when I was randomly pushing a little too hard on the brake pedal when I was parked, I burst a brake line somehow, and I ended up driving 20+ miles to my mechanic on busy city streets with no brakes, safely.

I doubt regenerative braking is any stronger than that.

[adtac]

I don't have an opinion on this, but how much of that is due to subsidies for the traditional energy industry? Make no mistake, electric vehicles get a lot of subsidies but I imagine governments around the world want energy independence, so they're probably throwing lots of money to help the industry.

[jstummbillig]

"Excuse" roughly means "good reason to do something bad". All of that is pretty subjective. So now you mostly know a little more about how the authors feels.

[0x000000001]

My insurance on my Model 3 with coverage of 250/500 is less than $50 a month with Progressive

[bobsil1]

My Bolt lease is $75/mo.

[carcostthrow]

US vs Canada I assume. Last time I looked at the Bolt Premier some years ago the dealer would not budge off of the $50,000+ price.

And for that price I was sitting in the most uncomfortable seats I've ever sat in for a personal vehicle; thin, hard and not well sculpted for my back. The only positive I recall was the excellent throttle response.

[bobsil1]

Model 3 killed GM’s leverage, and now they’re trying to dump them as compliance cars to make their margin on trucks.

Lease explained here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28096813

Seats are bad, but you can add aftermarket pad. Quick for its class (6 sec 0-60), fun to drive, virtually free with solar panels.

[culopatin]

How? The leases I see are 300. Big downplayment?

[bobsil1]

Never pay list. Leasehackr forums broker price: $4700 up front / out the door for 36 mo, CA $2K rebate, Costco member discount, competitive lease discount, local buyer discount, clearing ’21s before new model.

Broker sources online leads for lower price, because buyer’s knowledgeable and ready to sign.