[sjwalter]

This is incredibly misleading.

I used to be a close follower of the pharma industry, and you're making it seem like FDA trials happen on molecules and formulations somewhat related to the proposed formulation and then are, like, transitively approved on that hand-wavey basis. This is totally wrong.

For reasons that should be obvious to any engineer that's worked on any kind of even moderately complex system, the molecule that is tested and trialed is the molecule that goes to production.

You don't test "the technology" and then some unrelated other vaccine and then say, there we go, this one's safe.

You test the actual formulation that will go to production. This can't have happened for this yet. The trials are still underway. Unknown risk.

I dunno if you're misinformed or a troll, but that's dangerous stuff to be putting out there.

Vaccines are amazing life-saving tech, and they're safe because of our cultural technologies (FDA trials for e.g.) that make them safe. You can't take all the safety gear out and still get the same safety rating. Doesn't make sense, lol.

[munk-a]

The flu shot that's available each year doesn't undergo long term trials - it actually usually goes through about nine months to a year of trials due to predictions on what the flu outbreak will look like - but even then the substance is a reconfiguration of technology with new details being integrated.

In some areas of medicine we can afford to move slowly and we absolutely should - but when it comes to the flu we don't have that luxury.

[jaywalk]

And outside of some specific professions, the yearly flu shot is entirely optional. We don't have people running around screaming that you're a murderer or that you should be excluded from society if you choose not to get it. It's a personal medical decision, and that's the end of it.

[mrj]

Even if true, this novel molecule is not floating around in a body for an entire year waiting to have some side effect. They've been shooting it into people for a year and a half now. If there was something to worry about, it would have been seen.

But there are many parts of this vaccine that is shared with previous ones and the mechanics have been tested thoroughly. The science is the same. There's just no credible reason for those with normal immune systems to delay.

"This can't have happened for this yet. The trials are still underway. Unknown risk."

That's just simply untrue. The trials completed. Read the link.

[sjwalter]

Not sure why everyone keeps saying the trials completed, or which link you mean, because we can go right to the primary source (clinicaltrials.gov) and see that all the vaccines are still in Phase 3 of FDA trials. Here are the links.

Please stop spreading misinformation during a deadly pandemic.

Moderna's FDA trial: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04470427 Estimated Study Completion Date: October 27, 2022

Pfizer's FDA trial: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728 Estimated Study Completion Date: May 2, 2023

JnJ's FDA trial: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04505722 Estimated Study Completion Date: January 2, 2023

[mrj]

You're spreading doubt about vaccines during a pandemic. Please stop.

[sjwalter]

One of the foundational, bedrock principles of bioethics is "informed consent". It is extremely, practically diabolically, unethical to lie to people about medical treatments prior to gaining their consent. This is literally bioethics 101.

You are saying that I am putting people, or society, at risk simply by stating the simple, 100% true fact that these vaccines are not through FDA Phase 3 trials.

The implication of this is you believe it is best if people are NOT given informed consent, that they are kept in the dark, and told lies about the status of these vaccines, because doing so will encourage more people to take them.

I'm sorry, man, but that is just awful, terrible stuff.

Coursera has a course on bioethics, you may want to inform yourself before you engage in discussions about medicine, because you are totally operating in an evil way.

[mrj]

I'm not arguing against consent, of course. The data is out there but you are misinterpreting it.

I just think you're taking issue with silly things, overblowing the risks and trying to make other people scared. That's seriously messed up.

Be truthful. You've decided not to take it no matter what. Now you're back-filling reasons not to. If you truly were about your ethics, you'd stop trying to make others afraid because you are.

[sjwalter]

You said I was spreading doubt about vaccines during a deadly pandemic.

I have said zero about the safety of the vaccines. I have only stated the unassailable fact that they have not completed phase 3 trials.

How is telling the facts about the status of the vaccines spreading doubt?

I have taken plenty more vaccines than you, I'm sure, I'm not some anti-vaccine nutcase. I love medical technology, I love vaccines. I also love bioethics. I wish more people, like you, did too.

You say I'm afraid, and you couldn't be further from the truth. I'm more well-informed about covid than most people I interact with on a daily basis, and I live in a state that values individual autonomy, so we've experienced basically zero impact on our daily lives because of covid. Some folks used to wear masks, most folks didn't. Everything remained open, save a brief closure of our bowling alley, now thankfully back open.

I walk around without any fear whatsoever and all my local fellows seem to as well. Nobody talks about covid or really cares much about it all. Very few are vaccinated.

Life is fine.

Others are more scared. Others, like you, are trying to hide information about the vaccines. That sucks.

I hope your life improves, friend!

[incrudible]

> Even if true, this novel molecule is not floating around in a body for an entire year waiting to have some side effect. They've been shooting it into people for a year and a half now. If there was something to worry about, it would have been seen.

There are lots of things we do see and we should worry about. The problem is that we can't tell right away if it's just noise, if it's a potentially rare side-effect. Then you have the problems like Myocarditis, which are clearly caused by the vaccine, which we hand-wave away with speculative "the benefits still outweigh the risk" scenarios:

https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Scree...

[mrj]

Right, anything not yet discovered is going to be a pretty rare side effect. We're still learning about what covid does to the body, tell me about the side effects of getting sick.

[baq]

> "the benefits still outweigh the risk"

this is not handwaving, this is the foundation stone of modern medicine.

[incrudible]

Placebo-controlled studies that verify that the benefits actually outweigh the risk can be counted into those foundations.

Speculative scenarios based on predictive factors that you could just fudge until the result looks "right" to you, those are the essentially quackery.

[baq]

no disagreement here, but the same standards should be applied to misinformation from vaccine-skeptical folks. 'we don't know' is an honest answer for both sides.