[howolduis]

apology?

nothing of what I read sounds like an apology.

You basically said that your friends told you that what you did looked bad, and based on that, you feel sorry that he "felt" hurt. Then go on saying how good and gracious you were to him?

c'mon...

edit: typo

[barnabees]

If this isn't a real apology then what would you say a real apology looks like?

Of the many public apologies I've read in the past this reads like an honest, genuine one. He admitted guilt, explained what he did wrong and did not try to justify it, and clearly stated that he apologizes. What's missing?

[admash]

Six parts to a real apology:

Expression of regret. "I am truly sorry." - Check.

Explanation of what went wrong. "I must have directed angry words at you, who clearly had nothing to do with how the day had gone." - This is weaselly. "I must have...", not "I did".

Acknowledgment of responsibility. " I clearly forget that I am the oldest and most experienced—and I should act this way in a post-mortem conversation." - Weaselly. Whether he was oldest and most experienced or not, no one should behave this way. And rather than taking the responsibility, it's chalked up to forgetfulness.

Declaration of repentance. - Nothing here. No commitment to change. No stated intention for better emotional management.

Offer of repair. - "Finally, as you surely recall, I encouraged you throughout 2019, in person and in email, to join the Racket leadership;" In the absence of any kind of effort or commitment to change, this would not be received as a positive offer. But rather an extension of exposure to an abusive individual. Not much of a repair.

Request for forgiveness. - Nothing here either.

[DoreenMichele]

Request for forgiveness. - Nothing here either.

Well, I personally think asking for forgiveness is manipulative and shitty behavior. An apology should be about doing right by someone you wronged, not closing with "And last but not least: What's in it for me?!"

If they forgive you, coolios. Though it might take them more than five minutes just like it took apparently months for this apology to happen, so they don't need to promptly give you a fucking pat on the head like we give five year olds a cookie to reward desired behavior or some crap.

[admash]

The request for forgiveness is indicative of the desire to restore the relationship, as the other steps can be fulfilled in the absence of that desire.

The capacity of such a request to be manipulative is dependent on first, the sincerity of the desire, and second, on the degree to which the injured party feels compelled to forgive. We do a disservice in the extent that we inculcate an expectation that a request for forgiveness must be granted, as coerced or compelled forgiveness is not meaningful as it does not represent a restoration of the relationship that was damaged.

[DoreenMichele]

Maybe in a private apology between two people, that works. In a public apology, it's typically performative BS that puts the person on the spot and imposes on them to find some socially acceptable response rather than giving them room to sort their feelings and draw their own conclusions.

I think it also depends on the severity of the offense. I think if someone murdered someone beloved by the person to whom they are apologizing or raped someone or ruined their career, it would also be gauche to impose and ask forgiveness.

Forgiveness is a gift. I don't think it is appropriate to demand a gift, especially if you have done someone egregious harm.

[admash]

"I don't think it is appropriate to demand a gift," -- I agree completely, hence the use of the term "request".

But I would suggest that rather than making the effort to hinder what may be a genuine attempt at the restoration of a relationship, we should instead seek to help people recognize that forgiveness is voluntary, and that they have every right to decline extending forgiveness if harmed.

To use your phrase, we need to make it a socially acceptable response to deny forgiveness.

Better that forgiveness be rare and sincere, than common and meaningless.

[williamsmj]

I have no doubt it is honest, but it's not a good apology. He barely remembers the specific incident (by his own admission). That's not his fault, but it makes the apology pretty much meaningless. He seems to assume he was a bit of a grumpy-puss that day, and that "jaded" their subsequent interactions. This is incredibly glib and diminishes the specific incident.

But more importantly, he never admits to being a bully. The original post gives this incident as an example of a pattern of abusive behavior. He sidesteps that entirely.

[whatshisface]

What's a bully? Someone who loses their temper? Someone who's scary and makes enemies more easily than friends? I think a bully is someone who uses intimidation to get their way, if someone intimidates random bystanders what they have is a need to work on their emotional self-control.

[neolog]

It's more like someone who habitually uses power in a mean way.

[whatshisface]

There's a difference between someone who is naturally mean and happens to be in power and someone that uses meanness to get power.

[neolog]

The point is if you're in power it's more important to not behave badly than if you're not in power.

It's also easier in some ways, because you can get help from experienced outsiders who have a stake in your success and you can afford to experiment with improvement methods without getting fired. There are ways in which it's harder, such as if employees are too scared to tell you when you're being nasty.

[newbie789]

That’s true. Which of the two examples would you categorize as a “bully”?

[latortuga]

It's missing the forest for the trees. The original complaint was about a pattern of abuse whereas this post addresses a single instance of abuse.

If someone hits you 100 times and issues you an apology for 1 of the times because somebody else saw him do it and thought it looked mean, does that absolve him of the other 99, which weren't mentioned in the apology?

Taking real responsibility for a pattern of abuse looks a lot different and will require some self-reflection and real steps toward justice.

[keymone]

the blog post that apology is linking to says that it’s only one of many incidents that the victim doesn’t want to enumerate, but the apology sounded like it only considered that one incident, like it’s the only one that the bully could recall (and not without help). felt pretty shallow.

[teddyh]

See, this is why many powerful people have a policy of never apologizing for anything. To critics, no apology is enough, and any attempt at an apology only serves to prove (to critics) how insincere the person is. There is no way to win. The mere fact that the person here is trying to apologize indicates that the person is probably honestly trying to make amends. This is not a behavior you should discourage, if what you want is a functioning community. However, if what you want is instead more drama, by all means, flame away!

[Deestan]

These powerful people you refer to are treating this all as a game. As if apologies are only a tool to adjust public perception.

And most of the time such people really only do give calculated, insincere apology-shaped statements. Like a child forced to say "sorry" or they won't get their dessert. These apologies are rightfully criticized, but sadly for the most part they do their intended job.

If you are sorry and want to improve, and give a proper apology as a matter of integrity, the grumblings of some bystanders should not matter.

---

That being said, I think howoldius' criticism is overly nitpicky but generally valid. Felleisen sounds genuine, but writing an apology on a post-it on his own fridge and not telling anyone about it, and only acknowledging a small part of the problem as a one-off thing, isn't particularly absolving.

[teddyh]

> These powerful people you refer to are treating this all as a game.

I’m sure there are many such people, but in an individual instance of an apology, you can’t know that, unless you can read minds. Accept their apology and move on, and let their actions in the future speak for them.

[dsugarman]

I read it as I didn't understand how my actions were received, how I made you feel, that was not my intentions and I let other shit going on in my life feed into my grievances of that meeting. I always had so much respect for you that I thought you could be the best replacement for me (a big compliment)

I think he could be clearer on his delivery and it's obviously somewhat new territory given the context but I felt like I read a sincere apology accompanied by personal life lessons

[sokoloff]

Did we read the same article? After reading your comment and then clicking through to the article, I expected to see a half-ass “I’m sorry that you over-reacted” or something.

Instead, I saw was seems like a clear and genuine apology that takes responsibility for their actions and overtly admits that they were wrong rather than equivocating.

[ghostly_s]

Thw piece he's responding to is not about the specific incident cited, it is about a pattern of behavior.

[howolduis]

did you read the original blog post?

[Khalos]

I agree, this doesn't feel like much of an apology.

In addition to the reasons you mentioned, it also only acknowledges a single event, when the original post describes multiple incidents spanning multiple years.

Furthermore, there's no statement that suggests he intends to change his behavior in the future.