[hermannj314]

Amazon recently turned on support for Amazon Sidewalk on all of their hardware in my home (convention) and decided it was fine to do this because I could opt out (configuration).

That decision was the final straw for me. Every Amazon device is now unplugged, Prime membership and Amazon music canceled, no longer shopping on their site.

Doing what is "easy for the average user" is not sufficient for me, some configurations should be off by default. I shouldn't have to constantly worry that a remote code change could turn my hardware into a new source of revenue for you while I am on vacation at the beach.

[dathinab]

I would argue there is a difference between "being opinionated about how to implement a use-case" + "being opinionated about focusing on a small set of use-cases" and "forcing new use-cases on the user".

The article is about the former, Amazon Sidewalk about the later.

Also nothing while being opinionated can be very use-full for product design there is no reason why people can't be opinionated in a "bad" way.

What this article is about, and what most people mean when they say you should be more opinionated is that you should not be to generic, that you should focus on your core use-case and from a companies POV that is always a good idea IMHO. At least as long as you core use-case is the use-case people by your software for.

[akiselev]

> What this article is about, and what most people mean when they say you should be more opinionated is that you should not be to generic, that you should focus on your core use-case and from a companies POV that is always a good idea IMHO. At least as long as you core use-case is the use-case people by your software for.

Nowadays I think the problem isn't a lack of opinions but people's opinions chasing messy (it not outright useless) data and feedback without a vision for what the product is. They become so obsessed about whether they could [implement this feature/expand to more markets/get more big clients/earn more revenue] according to X data ("because SCIENCE!") that they never stop to think whether they should.

IMO that's how opinionated people help build great products: by stopping cargo culting, scope creep, and desperate measures of all kinds that are backed by bad data. That doesn't mean that they know exactly what their team should be working on next sprint, but they do care enough to shut down attempts from other departments that would degrade the product, even if that means passing up short term gains that look good on paper due to customer feedback or usage data.

[j45]

Default opt in to all changes could be Amazon’s self interested and opinionated position.

The comment above can also be an opinionated response as well.

Saying a company is client centric, but then not.. can be a mixed signal. There is plenty of brainpower to allow customers to tailor and optimize their experience so are less likely to leave, especially influential power users.

[cbsmith]

"forcing" isn't the right word though. They do have an opt-out. Making it an opt-out vs. an opt-in is very much "the former".

[dathinab]

Given that most people won't even know what is happening without their consent it's not that different from forcing.

Opt-out is NOT consent, consent requires you do know about it, at least somewhat understand it and then "say yes". Opt-out it's more like forcing with a way to defend yourself.

[cbsmith]

I didn't say that opt-out is consent... and no opt-out is opt-out, and forcing is forcing.

Can you imagine how silly it would sound to talk about all the "forcing" that MacOS and Windows do that you can change by going in to settings and changing it? Indeed, Apple has famously made tons of decisions for their users about what the reasonable defaults might be, and is praised for this; no one calls it forcing.

I get it. I don't like the defaults either. That doesn't mean you can just slap on whatever word has negative connotations and say that's what is happening.

[dgb23]

> I shouldn't have to constantly worry that a remote code change could turn my hardware into a new source of revenue for you while I am on vacation at the beach.

This is it. It actually induces some kind of anxiety and mild paranoia.

We can also very easily support companies that don't treat their customers this way, or their workers, or business partners...

[fnimick]

Unfortunately, companies that don't extract maximum revenue from their customers/workers get outcompeted and put out of business by those that do.

[dgb23]

I hear that often but is it really true?

There seem to be tons of companies, typically small to medium ones, who provide quality services and products and have earned the trust of their customers, workers and partners over the years without screwing them over left and right. Some of them additionally have higher standards in regards to environmental issues on top of all of this.

Nobody is perfect, but I don't think it is required to be a bully to find and keep a sustainable market niche.

Overall this behavior is harmful, partly because it puts people into positions where they have overwhelming levels of power and influence. My personal opinion is that this leads to an unreasonable amount of responsibility and an unhealthy detachment or distance from affected people.

[chrischattin]

Treating customers, suppliers, and employees with fairness, dignity, and respect is a competitive ADVANTAGE in the long term. You might make a quick buck in the short term doing otherwise, but you'll lose out over the long term.

[loudtieblahblah]

I feel like, supporting them or not with their store, it was always a no-brainer to not purchase smart, cloud connected doorbells and wire-tape speakers and litter my house with them.

I kinda hate my Roku even having a microphone button and my kid figuring out how to use it.

We're crossing lines that shouldn't be crossed, ripe for corporate/state abuse and we already have history and experience about the usage of tech being grown to continually spy on people one nudge at a time, that we shouldn't be fooled by this stuff.

but here we are, plenty of smart, educated, technical people who know that history, salivating at MOAR GADGETS THAT DO STUFFS.

[ostenning]

People need real hobbies

[loudtieblahblah]

its a combination of things. People want convenience and that desire is never ending and never sated.

in the age of consumerism, people want to consume MORE but live more minimally. This gives way to more cloud, connected services, more "renting". More.. processing by someone else, somewhere else.

And yes, people spend less time creating and doing and too much time just consuming as their main hobby. They need to spend more time outdoors, doing stuff with their hands, being creative and constructive.

And lastly - my more controversial, generalized but hyper-specific point - is up until COVID and tons of protests turned riots, people were moving into cities at a high rate. They moved into gentrified areas, down played the crime, downplayed the smog, downplayed the endless mismanagement of tax money by old corrupt city governments. They'll go as far as to call people who don't want to move into the city as being racist (for wanting to avoid the crime) or for destroying the environment b/c they don't want to live packed in like sardines in a smog filled urban center.

Well for all those hipsters who think crime isn't such a problem and only something "racists" point out - they all seem to have this incessant need for RING doorbells to keep people stealing the never ending array Amazon and other CongloMo Inc packages from their middle class porches.

They go out in the streets, pumping their fist in the air for BLM, then go home, waiting for their packages from amazon, hopefully protected by Amazon RING doorbells which are expanding the private/public partnership in an ever growing police and surveillance state. They get online and finger wag in one direction and allow their money to vote in another. They're an awful lot like rural republicans voting against their own economic interests, but at least on the Republican side there's a bit of a bait and switch going on. here, it's just direct hypocrisy.

[pranau]

Can someone explain why there’s so much outrage against Amazon Sidewalk when it’s doing a similar thing to Apple’s Find My/AirTags which was met with almost universal praise?

[teekert]

I wouldn't like if I would specifically keep my Samsung Smart TV offline because Samsung themselves advice not to talk about sensitive things in front of the telly [0], and then finding out that it did go online, via my neighbor's helpful Alexa... No thank you.

[0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-31296188

[Spivak]

I mean is this any different than a rogue appliance connecting to your neighbors open Wi-Fi or just partnering with a cellular network?

[pranau]

Are there any indications that the Sidewalk network can be used to relay other than device control information?

[teekert]

Maybe not, but as always it comes down to trust. And I trust Apple to be more diligent with my iPhone's AirTag locating capabilities than Amazon is with their ability to help any device get online.

Amazon makes things cheap and easy but not always in ways agree with.

As a counter Example, Canonical got some critique with their "telemetry in the installer", but if you ask me, they did it in the nicest way possible: They told everyone that they want some data to focus developers' efforts where it counts and they let me inspect the json object I was about to send them, so I trust them and sent it to them with a smile.

[smoldesu]

In all fairness, there are several ways to transmit arbitrary information on the AirTag protocol. The overall reason why people trust Apple with Airtags/Find My is because they're too big to fail. Everyone has already come to terms with the fact that iCloud owns their photos, iTunes owns their music... what's the difference if they also have your location data?

[teekert]

My iPhone’s backend is Nextcloud (files, picture uploads, contacts, calendar) I have 0 bytes in iCloud.

[giobox]

I agree with this, but I'd add that if you have already trusted Amazon enough to purchase and run 24/7 with full access to your home network their remotely controlled and configured internet microphone, drawing the line at this feature seems a little odd to me.

If you own an Echo device and used it prior to this feature you had already granted a large degree (relative to this feature) of trust to Amazon anyway. It reminds me a little of people who swear they will never use an Echo device due to concerns about eavesdropping but happily carry an internet microphone equiped smartphone everywhere.

[robotshmobot]

Sometimes people just need a final straw.

[pranau]

Thanks, that makes sense. Eventually, it does come down to trust then. I was under the impression that there was a technical reason as to why Amazon Sidewalk is worse than Find My.

[ClumsyPilot]

Ofcouras not, they will just add it next week and you will have 2 hours to opt out

We need laws against this shit

[ClumsyPilot]

Thank you fpr letting me know. This is incredulous - 1984 where tv watches you, has come, without communism, and noone has noticed.

[np-]

1) A big thing is trust - people trust Apple to keep their data secure much more than they trust Amazon, especially when you contrast both company's main business model.

2) Apple's "Find My" was pitched first and foremost as a feature and benefit for the user. And the value proposition was very clear and useful from day 1. You can find your lost phone even in a place there is no signal. Now with Airtags you can find any device. It's easy to imagine a horror story where you lose your $1000 phone in a basement bar or drop it in a parking garage somewhere. Apple in general has better PR.

3) No one's losing their Alexa device. I mean for 99.99% of users it's never moving once it's placed. So what's the point of this feature? It's just pure revenue gain for Amazon with like zero benefit to the average user. They want to use our wifi purely for their benefit? Come on. I know there is Tile functionality, but it's still creepy - you're using my _home_ as a tracking beacon? At least when it's my phone, I'm on the move and could be anywhere.

Just to expand a bit on the last point - the way Apple's "Find my" works is that the only information shared is that there was an iPhone at some location and crossed paths with a lost item at that location. The way Amazon's Tile will work is that a lost item is crossing paths with an "anonymous beacon" which happens to reside in a very specific location.

In Apple's implementation, there is almost no way to personally identify whose iPhone made the detection. In Amazon's case, it's trivial to identify it - it's the beacon that's at the same place all the time, which happens to be your house.

[kuu]

I guess some of the reasons are that Sidewalk is:

- For a product that was already owned and did not need it until now

- Activated by default, as optional opt-out instead of opt-in

[geoah]

Isn't it the same with airtags? Your iphone will forward data about other people's airtags as long as you have upgraded to the latest ios. You can opt-out, but you need to know about it first. Same deal I think with sidewalk.

[andrei_says_]

You’re right, it is.

I think it comes down to trust and a track record of commitment to privacy.

Also IMO apple handled the PR for airtags very well.

[pranau]

I don't own an Amazon smart device and I don't think I ever will so I cannot comment on whether there is actually a need for a feature like Sidewalk.

Find My is also opt-out instead of opt-in

[risyachka]

The funny thing is - if Apple made Find My opt-in - most users would chose not to use their device for Find My, though it benefits them all and hardly has a downside.

The sheer fact of asking the user to opt-in automatically decreases opt-in rate a lot (like a LOT), even if that tech is super good. It is way easier to dismiss a dialog than to think what it even does.

[wyager]

The airtags model is completely different. Much more restricted, secure, and private.

[0xffff2]

I'll grant that the outrage against Sidewalk does seem to be worse, but there are at least some of us who dislike both. I have Find My turned off on my iPhone.

[shkkmo]

> Apple’s Find My/AirTags which was met with almost universal praise

That wasn't my impression. I saw plenty of criticism on HN.

[newbie578]

Easy, Apple has a cult following, Amazon doesn't.

[Torwald]

What grates me with these situations is that they have my data, which is one thing, but I don't have access to that data!

[criddell]

What grates me is that I can't turn it off by saying "Alexa, turnoff sidewalk". They make you go into the app and dig for it. IMHO, you should be able to access all of the settings via voice.

[hosteur]

In eu you do as per gdpr

[pier25]

I've never understood this Amazon Sidewalk thing.

The vast majority of people already have internet at home and phone plans.

Also, what's in it for Amazon? How does it profit from something like this?

[kersplody]

It enables Amazon devices to transparently connect to amazon with near zero user configuration as long as the device is within range of an authorized AP or another sidewalk device owned by anyone. This makes Amazon devices to "just work" in more places and most users will love it because they don't know and/or don't care about the privacy and network security implications.

[radicaldreamer]

It uses much longer range radios (900 mhz range) to blanket areas where most home routers don't reach.

Comcast does the same thing but with standard Wifi with their routers, with some hidden SSIDs you can't opt out of (Xfinity Home etc.)

[SubiculumCode]

I just cancelled my Prime as well. Too far. And I don't even have their hardware.

[SergeAx]

> easy for the average user

Turns out you are not average user. I am quite sure that Amazon's profit from Sidewalk will shadow losses from you and other leavers by couple magnitudes.

[cma]

Can you opt out of Apple's similar thing for airtags?

[lotsofpulp]

Yes.

https://www.macworld.com/article/347243/how-to-opt-out-of-th...

[cma]

So both are opt out. Which one is worse?

[pdpi]

The one that lets my neighbour look up kiddy porn over my connection.

[jon-wood]

I get the anger about Sidewalk, but this is absolutely not a thing you can do with it.

Sidewalk isn’t a wifi network that people can just connect to, it’s a LoRa radio. A low bandwidth, long range protocol. Devices connecting need to be pre-registered with Amazon, and can only communicate via an endpoint in AWS.

Even if someone somehow created a device for arbitrary web browsing via Sidewall, and put up with the incredibly slow connection speed, combined with strict limits on how much bandwidth can be consumed, all they get is a VPN immediately traceable to their AWS account.

[jiofih]

Amazon. Apple’s system doesn’t use much of your bandwidth or have anyone else’s data going through your device (it’s completely anonymous).

[pranau]

Can you please explain how Apple’s Find My is anonymous while Sidewalk is not? As far as I understand, Find My collects device location information through other iPhones and then upload them to Apple’s cloud where it can be viewed by you. Apple states that this is done in a privacy preserving way by using rotating identifiers. In the case of Amazon, they state that all the device information being relayed through your device is encrypted and capped at 80kbps.

I am not sure I understand why one is a concern while the other isn’t.

[jiofih]

Sidewalk is carrying all kinds of data from other users. You have absolutely no idea what. It’s a loosely defined system that Amazon controls remotely at their will. The encryption stops you from snooping like any other TLS traffic, but Amazon itself is the receiver on the other end. And it piggybacks on your own internet connection - 80Kbps is a huge amount of data.

Find My identifiers have a single purpose, are useless to anything but the owners device, cannot be used by Apple for tracking, ads or whatever, and id be surprised if the entire payload after a day out is > 8KB total. These look completely different to me.

[cma]

So the ethical distinction is just data amount? Both send anonymous data, if you just mean encrypted.

[rodiger]

afaik it is a relay system so it does have other's data possibly going through. That being said the information being passed is less comprehensive.

[risyachka]

Just curious - has there been an opt-in rate more than at least 30% in anything at all? Literally any tech or feature.