[motives]

Worth noting that the EU has banned entire nations (such as Kazakhstan and others) from flying in EU airspace before for not meeting safety expectations. It is absolutely within possibility to ban Belarus for an overt Chicago convention violation.

[aphextron]

>It is absolutely within possibility to ban Belarus for an overt Chicago convention violation.

EU did the same thing in 2013 by forcing the Bolivian president's plane to land in an effort to catch Snowden. They have no moral or legal standing here whatsoever.

https://euobserver.com/justice/120734

[ashtonkem]

Maybe no moral standing, but they still have legal standing.

[ryanlol]

This wasn’t even remotely similar.

Those EU countries didn’t allow the plane into their airspace, encouraging it to land in a third country to refuel.

Belarus called in a fake bomb threat and used their fighter jets to force a passenger flight to land in their territory, not to mention the KGB officers on board making a scene.

Outcome might be similar, but it’s specifically the tactics used which make this unacceptable.

[aphextron]

>Those EU countries didn’t allow the plane into their airspace, encouraging it to land in a third country to refuel.

Seems like a trivial difference. Denying access to your airspace comes with the implicit threat of fighter interception.

[ddalex]

In the event that you are not a Russian troll, let me explain two key differences:

The Morales jet was warned ahead of time in a legal way, not intercepted and forced to land in an unintended destination.

No persons from the Morales jet were detained.

One is an lawful act (perhaps imoral in some way) , and one is an arbitrary act outside of any lawful framework . I hope this clears the confusion.

[SpaceRaccoon]

Morales plane was searched. If Snowden was on it, he would have been detained.

It's not that Belarus' actions are admissable. It's that the West is acting in a hypocritical way.

If Belarus had as much power as the US, they surely would have followed the same route and forced all the surrounding nations to close their airspace. The end result would be the same.

[ddalex]

It was searched according to the local law where it landed. Nobody forced them to land in Austria - could have just as easily returned to Moscow.

The stark difference between the way the West does it is that you have a choice whenever to comply or pick an alternative, whereas Belarus left no choice.

EU, as a matter of routine, forbids certain persons from entering their airspace, has refused entry countless times to planes (some of them airborne) based on passenger manifests. Nobody would have batted an eye if Belarus would have done the same.

Pointing a gun (armed MiG fighter) at a civilian airplane based on who is a passenger using a deceptive pretext, outside laws and regulations, is several orders of magnitudes worse than lawful application of rules. If you fail to see why, read about habeas corpus.

[GauntletWizard]

The same end result achieved by legal or illegal means is more than enough difference. One is performed by the consent of many, the other by thuggery of few.

[jopsen]

It a huge difference... You're suggesting there is a conspiracy a foot. When in practice it's quite likely France, Spain, etc. just denied access because then the diplomatic hot potato wouldn't be theirs :)

And I'm hindsight Austria probably regrets they didn't deny access too, because then the potato wouldn't have landed on their soil.

It's not very bold to say: "pass don't involve me", but it's not necessarily a conspiracy to intercept a plane. That would have to involve a lot of people, and would probably leak..

[def_true_false]

They had a bunch of plain clothes operatives follow a guy onto a public flight, fake a bomb threat and scramble jets to get the plane to land?

All this whataboutism isn't really bringing much to the discussion here...

What next, the West can't complain about human rights violations in HK or Mongolia just because US police shot some dude (again)?

[nyolfen]

“whataboutism” is a thought-terminating cliche — it’s a directly analogous situation that shows that there are no principles or rule-based order, only power. you have the power to get away with doing this, or you don’t; lofty rhetoric is a propaganda measure

[w0de0]

“Whataboutism” gets my goat because:

* It generally has no context. Yes, the West did something similar. It does not follow that the West will engage in the same type of systemic evil, that argument must be made on its own.

* Whataboutism often implies that naughty behavior is ok; that the hypocrisy of the West is justification for some further evil. One is at best making the argument that everyone is evil so just do it

* It consistently assumes the ignorance of particularly Americans - that if you just tell the dumb American that his government did something bad too, the scales will fall from their eyes, they will accept everything is evil and meaningless, and they will stop criticizing you

* the West is just plain better, on the historical record, at admitting and correcting hypocrisy. It’s a kind of meta-hypocrisy for these countries that never actually implement a liberal system to do such a great job of helping us improve ours, by pointing out flaws we’re secure enough to fix and they’re not.

Moreover, whataboutism does not prove that only power exists. Much the opposite: it proves that, at least in the West, moral norms can have force. Else why would Easterners bother with it?

[SergeAx]

No, it was not the same thing. That plane had all means to travel in another direction, including return to departure point (it had more than enough fuel for it). Also, whataboutism.

[hulitu]

No. You don't underestand. Snowden = american criminal. America = our friend. This guy = belorussian criminal. Lukashenkon - until some months ago our friend, now - our enemy.

[Aperocky]

Only the airlines, not the nation.

You can fly from Kazakhstan on an European carrier to Europe. Europe previously have also banned shoddy Soviet era airliners that are both incredibly loud, toxic and quite unsafe, which is the right thing to do.

[motives]

I feel this is a fairly pedantic correction, though of course you're very correct nonetheless. My opinion is that banning all of a nations major airlines from operating in your airspace is functionally equivalent to banning that nation. Belarus is much like Kazakhstan in that the vast majority of routes from its airports are by its national airlines. Most of the routes to the EU are flown by Belavia (Belarus' national airline) https://www.flightconnections.com/flights-from-minsk-msq.

[Aperocky]

Well, I feel like it's important to point out that people can still fly direct from $nation to Europe despite the ban.

[varjag]

Most of flights to Europe are codeshares with Belavia, so not really.