[redxdev]

> I'm not following. You can literally just go to a Best Buy and gaze at lots of different phone models to see for yourself. It's very realistic.

I agree with you here - this is a bad comparison, it's incredibly easy to just go buy something that isn't iOS-based - but that doesn't actually help much, at least from Epic's perspective. In fact, Epic is suing Google over how they treat Android as well:

* Google Play has similar restrictions to the iOS App Store, therefore neither Fortnite (assuming they want their own payment processing) nor EGS can exist on it.

* Sideloading is possible (and was/is (?) used for Fortnite) so that at least is fine, however...

* Sideloaded apps lose out on some important features - namely that they can't auto-update. Technically, this isn't a sideloading restriction but a restriction on non-system apps but the result is the same. System apps cannot be installed except via an OS flash (with a custom ROM)/root which is not something you can expect the average consumer to do.

* Additionally, Epic cannot make deals with manufacturers to get EGS installed as a system app due to Google blocking them from making those deals.

I have mixed feelings overall on whether we should be giving more opportunities for manufacturers to install possible bloatware on phones (something that plagued the early days of Android and still does to some degree) and whether it's a good idea to open up sideloading system apps. But even so, you have to admit that you can't "just" buy another phone to be able to do what Epic wants. Whether that's worthy of antitrust action... I really don't know.

[ericmay]

> But even so, you have to admit that you can't "just" buy another phone to be able to do what Epic wants.

Sure but why would we expect that this should be the case or be desirable?

Epic has restrictions on its own Epic store, for example.

[redxdev]

Because EGS isn't the only store on the platform - if you can't sell through their store you can go elsewhere (or DIY it). They aren't obligated to sell your products, but you also aren't obligated to sell via their store.

On iOS it's outright impossible to have a native app that isn't distributed through the app store (testflight/enterprise apps aside). With Google Play it's technically possible but you're at a massive disadvantage not just due to Google Play's reach (which is fine) but due to technical and contractual limitations imposed by Google themselves (which is arguably not fine).

[ericmay]

I can’t sell my own Fortnite skins, for example. If I wanted to access the Fortnite user base I have to use the Epic Game Store. I also can’t sell any game I want on their platform. I have to follow their rules, get approval? Etc.

Not to mention video game exclusives. Why do I have to download Fortnite through the Epic Game Store and have an Epic account? Shouldn’t I be able to sign in with another provider? I should be able to download, install, and play Fortnite with my Steam account and buy and sell in game content via Steam or other providers. It seems like they are limiting competition by forcing me to use their login system and micro transaction platform.

I just don’t find the anger at the Apple App Store compelling. The only reason we are talking about it is because it’s a popular platform.

[redxdev]

> I can’t sell my own Fortnite skins, for example. If I wanted to access the Fortnite user base I have to use the Epic Game Store.

You're right - and Epic isn't arguing that they have to be let on to the App Store, except in the case where there's no alternative. Ignoring the fact that Fortnite isn't actually a platform that allows you to submit skins to Epic (and as such isn't really comparable), you absolutely can make your own skins and 3d models and content and sell them somewhere else, you just can't in Fortnite.

And before you say "oh but they can just go to Android" - no, they can't, because Google Play has similar restrictions and while making a separate store is possible it isn't practical due to technical restrictions Google imposes on the OS.

> I also can’t sell any game I want on their platform. I have to follow their rules, get approval? Etc.

I've already addressed this. On iOS it is impossible to sell an app outside of the app store. If you're denied from EGS you can just go to Steam, itch.io, GOG, or host a website yourself.

> Not to mention video game exclusives.

This is a completely unrelated issue. The court case is about the rights of a developer and their relationship to the app store. This argument is about the rights of a consumer and I do not see it as even remotely relevant.

> The only reason we are talking about it is because it’s a popular platform.

You're right - the platform being popular is what gives Epic's argument merit. It makes Epic less able to ignore the app store if they want to go after the mobile market. Obviously if the platform wasn't popular then no one would care and this case never would have happened.

[ericmay]

> Obviously if the platform wasn't popular then no one would care and this case never would have happened.

Which I think strikes right at the point here. This is practiced throughout the world and throughout industries, but for some reason we think it should be different for mobile phones. I don't see why it should be, especially given that in the overall market, Epic can publish their game across multiple competing platforms: Android, Windows, macOS, Linux, Xbox, PlayStation, Switch, etc. and iOS until recently.

In fact, as you mentioned, if you don't like the Apple Store you can go to: Steam, itch.io, GOG, or host a website yourself. If I can't create an arbitrary game and have access to Epic's user base, I don't see how it's different. Can I use Epic accounts on my own indy game?

I think you are narrowly defining the marketplace as being only iOS, when in fact it's much larger, and you're not taking into account that this is all about access to users. In both of these areas, it's hard to find compelling activity for Epic. They can and do publish Fortnite on multiple platforms, and they also arbitrarily restrict access to their own user-base.

Epic just wants to have their cake and eat it too and I have yet to see compelling evidence to the contrary, myself.

[johnnyanmac]

>This is practiced throughout the world and throughout industries, but for some reason we think it should be different for mobile phones

uhh, no? Antitrust arises out of the core factor that "this platform is popular and people care". If people didn't care about Windows it wouldn't have gotten an antitrust in the 1990's. If people didn't care about Steel then the Rockerfellers wouldn't have gotten antitrust in 19th century.

Is very much is not different for phones. The only difference is that data doesn't take up physical space. But I hope we've progressed past the web 1.0 arguments on how data isn't powerful.

>n fact, as you mentioned, if you don't like the Apple Store you can go to: Steam, itch.io, GOG, or host a website yourself. If I can't create an arbitrary game and have access to Epic's user base, I don't see how it's different. Can I use Epic accounts on my own indy game?

Itch.io, Steam, Gog are not hosted on IOS. IOS has a marketplace of 10 billion and offers to host general applications, much like a PC (which has been hit by a case like this). Comparing this to selling fortnite skins is very dishonest and telling of your faith in this conversation.

>I have yet to see compelling evidence to the contrary, myself.

Lead a horse to water...

This is why I'm glad that this cases isn't being run by people who are just frustrated at not playing Hades a year earlier on steam.

[redxdev]

The argument is that things should be different for a platform that isn't easily substituted. EGS is easily substituted for Steam because there are no barriers to which store you use on PC aside from installing a new one, and using multiple at a time isn't even much of a burden. The App Store is not easily substituted for anything because there are no major alternatives in the mobile space that don't have the same restrictions, and even ignoring that there's an argument to be made about the cost (monetary and otherwise) to switch platforms that is _much_ higher than switching storefronts on PC.

The one segment you've mentioned that actually works similarly is consoles - Xbox/PlayStation/Switch. These operate much the same way as the App Store and are the reason I myself am torn on whether I agree with Epic. Their argument for why consoles do _not_ apply here is that they are not intended as "general purpose" devices the way a PC or phone is. I don't know if I believe that argument to be convincing, but I absolutely see where they are coming from with everything else.

> I think you are narrowly defining the marketplace as being only iOS, when in fact it's much larger

For the record, a big part of the court case has been (and likely will continue to be) about this point - does it make sense to segment the market in this way?