[zyb09]

Hope not to sound like a extreme liberal, but a lot of the highly illegal hard drugs, aren't nearly as hazardous or addicting as they made out to be and can have positive effects - IF used right. That includes psilocybin, MDMA, THC, DMT, LSD and whatnot. Others are clearly toxic and very unhealthy, like crack or meth. It's all matter of being well informed about the effect and right use of the drug, as well as a having clean products. The one thing that makes them dangerous is the potential of miss use is very high.

[city41]

After I went to Bonnaroo and saw people doing every drug imaginable, I read "Buzzed" [0], which is written by several Duke professors and covers just about every drug out there. It was really fascinating, and I was surprised to find that many drugs are not that harmful, or at the least not nearly as harmful as I assumed them to be.

[0] http://www.amazon.com/Buzzed-Straight-Abused-Alcohol-Ecstasy... (not an affiliate link)

[Wingman4l7]

I might remove MDMA from that list -- the head researcher at Johns Hopkins for this study was interviewed about a similar 2006 study he did; it mentions that studies at John Hopkins have shown the potential for brain damage from MDMA ("certain nerve cells", anyway). http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/Griffiths...

[kristofferR]

Heh, it's a shame that that myth is still around. The study was actually retracted by the "scientist" himself after he discovered that his lab had administered methamphetamine instead of MDMA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retracted_article_on_toxicity_o...

However, MDMA should certainly not be taken more than a couple of times a year. It's not something you mess around with, we don't know enough about how it affects brain chemistry yet.

[hyperbovine]

> However, MDMA should certainly not be taken more than a couple of times a year. It's not something you mess around with, we don't know enough about how it affects brain chemistry yet.

There are those who find those two sentences a bit curious, and those who do not.

[gnosis]

It's interesting how so many people will balk at taking an illegal drug because they "don't want to risk brain damage", and yet will think nothing of driving or riding in a car and risking both brain damage and death nearly every day.

Mountain climbing, rock climbing, skydiving, scuba diving, and even just walking across the street all risk serious bodily injury, brain injury, and death. Yet most people won't freak out if you choose to engage in one of these activities.

But if you dare to swallow a pill every now and then, you're treated as a reckless, immoral madman.

[makmanalp]

Why is this so surprising?

It's because people understand what can go wrong and how it goes wrong in all of the activities you listed above. However I'll wager that many illegal drug users don't know what goes on at all and have no clue what can go wrong. Even when they do, I think it's pretty smart to acknowledge that brain chemistry is far more complicated than car crashes, and it's harder to figure out the unexpected / long term effects of one than the other.

[gnosis]

Brain damage from any of the activities I listed above (including car crashes) could manifest itself in any number of ways. And it's impossible to tell ahead of time what the long-term effects of such brain damage will be.

I'm not really sure that knowledge of what can go wrong explains much about the different attitudes society at large has towards drug users vs people who engage in other risky activities (including simply riding in a car).

Most people know that if you ride in a car you could get in to a car accident and you could be maimed or killed or wind up a vegetable. How does knowing these potential effects explain the differing attitudes towards car drivers vs drug users?

[axolotl]

It should be noted that there was a scandal involving MDMA research at Johns Hopkins. A study claimed to prove that MDMA caused brain damage, but in fact Methamphetamine had accidentally been administered instead of MDMA. http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2003/09/60328

Of course, this doesn't disprove other legitimate studies. The interview you link took place well after that scandal.

[Wingman4l7]

I was unaware that the research had been discredited; thanks for letting me know.

That said, for those who are interested, here is the paper that the article is referring to:

Griffiths, R.R., Johnson, M.W., Richards, W.A., Richards, B.D., McCann, U., & Jesse, R. (in press). Psilocybin occasioned mystical-type experiences: Immediate and persisting dose-related effects. Psychopharmacology.

... and here is the previous study he did:

Griffiths, R.R., Richards, W.A., McCann, U., & Jesse, R. (2006). Psilocybin can occasion mystical experiences having substantial and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance. Psychopharmacology, 187, 268-283.

...which was the study related to the aforementioned interview: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/Griffiths...

[rdl]

MDMA is much more potentially dangerous than those other drugs, especially in an acute way. The "safety factor" (ratio between dangerous dose to useful dose) is huge for THC, LSD, mushrooms, DMT, K, etc., and much smaller for MDMA, Meth, K, opiates, coke.

There are a few (DOB?) which have safety factors around 2-4x, which is really unsafe.

erowid.org is probably a much better source of info on this topic than hacker news, though.

[MichaelGG]

According to Wikipedia, morphine has a therapeutic index of 70:1, and even cocaine is 15:1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index

[nolanw]

The "safety factor"... is huge for THC, LSD, mushrooms, DMT, K, etc., and much smaller for MDMA, Meth, K, opiates, coke.

---

I spy a repeat...

[drivebyacct2]

Well and the other problem with MDMA is that it's often meth or cocaine based, not actual "molly" or pure MDMA.

[hrasm]

But be warned that usage of psychotropic substances may act as a catalyst to bring out any latent psychological issues. Also, there is the possibility of a bad trip.

[bane]

Common nutmeg is more dangerous than most "hard" drugs...and we give it to children!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutmeg#Psychoactivity_and_toxic...

[makmanalp]

This is just pure bullshit. While I'm all for drug decriminalization, I'm always stunned by the dumb half-truths its proponents come up with as justification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myristicin

> It should also be added that when consuming raw nutmeg, only 5-15% of the mass consumed is an essential oil fraction, of which only roughly 4% is myristicin,[9] indicating the amount present overall in the nut is from 0.2-0.6%.

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/Chem_Background/ExSumPdf...

> Symptoms usually appear three to six hours after ingestion of 1-3 whole nutmegs or 5-15 gm of the grated spice.

Abnormally large quantities of a substance may be poisonous? Surprise! There is no WAY anywhere even close to that amount gets in anything we give to children. It takes my family several years to get through a single nutmeg. Myristicin is also part of anise, dill, carrot, fennel and black pepper.

[bane]

You have a funny way of disproving me.

"This is just pure bullshit."

Followed by a list of information about the dangerous psychoactive compound in nutmeg.

5-15 grams (on the low end) is not a lot of food item.

A teaspoon = about 4grams.

A tablespoon = about 14 grams.

Here's 64.9 grams for less than $5. http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Organic-Nutmeg-CERTIFIED-ORGANI...

From http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/INDEX57DE.HTM?objectid=E88175E0-BDB...

"Ingestion of five or more grams of nutmeg causes acute nutmeg poisoning, which includes giddiness, hallucinations, and feelings of depersonalization. Symptoms usually appear three to six hours after ingestion of 1-3 whole nutmegs or 5-15 gm of the grated spice. Recovery usually occurs within 24 hours. Nevertheless, duration of action may extend beyond several days and even include death. /Nutmeg/ [Green RC, Jr; JAMA 171 (10): 1342-4 (1959); Painter JC et al; Clin Toxicol 4 (1): 1-4 (1971)] PEER REVIEWED"

So basically, somebody trying to repeat the cinnamon challenge, but with nutmeg, and ate a heaping tablespoon of the stuff would introduce a lethal dosage of the substance into their body.

So your argument is, because you personally only tap a little on your eggnog once a year, it's suddenly not a lethally toxic psychoactive substance in doses not much above the range that people might use in cooking?

http://homecooking.about.com/library/archive/blspice3.htm (recipes that all use at least 1/4 teaspoon of nutmeg)

[bane]

meta:...and here come the downvotes for presenting factual information with no rebutal. I hate to say this is typical on HN, but it's definitely something that occurs in certain "hot-topic" discussions. A downvote here without rebutal is a bit like:"no! you're wrong!"

"based on what specifically?"

"you're just wrong!"

Common HN, we're above that kind of childishness...let's get specific.

Either nutmeg contains Myristicin, which is deadly at about .15 grams of the substance, which occurs in natural concentrations in nutmeg or it doesn't. (it does) We're not talking about car loads of the stuff.

A dosage of about a tablespoon of nutmeg contains a lethal amount of Myristicin, or it doesn't. (it does)

We appear to be in violent agreement about the percentages, dosages and other particulars, so what parts of my statement appears to be the problem?

For fun, I looked up some more:

Comprehensive Review in Toxicology for Emergency Clinicians, Bryson, P. D.

"The chemical agents which are thought to give nutmeg its psychoactive effects are myristicin and elemicin, which are amphetamine-like compounds similar to MDMA...The ingestion of as little as 1 to 2 tablespoonsful, which may contain 5 to 10g in each tablespoon, is capable or producing psychoactive effects described as hallucinations, euphoria, and other distortions of reality as well as many undesirable effects.

The symptoms begin 3 to 6 hours after ingestion and generally resolve in 24 hours. The first CNS effects are giddiness, tingling, dizziness, apprehension, anxiety, and a generalized feedling of excitement. Later, euphoria, visual hallucinations, distortions in time and space, reality detachment, sensations of limb loss, and fear of death may occur. This may progress to extreme drowsiness and lethargy that persist for a day or more."

And another from Emergency Medicine News "The study itself conducted a retrospective chart review of the California Poison Control System electronic database for cases of isolated nutmeg exposure during the years 1997 – 2008. The authors identified 119 single-substance exposures, collected descriptive data, and compared intentional recreational abuse (86 cases) with unintentional exposures (33 cases)."

On Elemicin, the other psychoactive component of nutmeg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elemicin

"One study found it to comprise 2.4% of the fresh essential oil."

So nutmeg is probably toxic in slightly lower doses than I've been claiming, but it's hard to find specific toxicity studies that isolate both compounds.

[makmanalp]

I know how much a gram is.

A gram is a unit of weight. A teaspoon is a unit of volume. A teaspoon of some things might be 4 grams, but not your average grated nutmeg.

Now even if I generously took your large overestimation as fact, and by my sheer lack of luck some person ate a whole pie by themselves, the amount of nutmeg is below even the lower end of that range (5 to 15 grams, by the way, not 0.05 to 0.15 grams).

Finally, you conveniently ignored the last part of my previous post. There are many household substances that you can take undue amounts of. This does not make them more dangerous than most hard drugs. How many nutmeg deaths have there been recorded? How many hard drug deaths have there been recorded? I think number of deaths is a good enough metric of danger. I'll let the jury decide this one.

If you care about making a proper argument, at least use acetaminophen. That's a substance that has actually taken a significant number of lives. And for the record, it wasn't me who downvoted you.

[bane]

Actually, a gram is a unit of mass.

[JabavuAdams]

Pedantry. We can argue about that when the Martian and Moon colonists go on Nutmeg binges.

EDIT> ... but it won't matter since their scales will be calibrated. If you use a scale you're measuring weight, not mass.

[makmanalp]

Wow, you really addressed all my counterarguments with that one. Doesn't really change your overestimation and doesn't really change the fact that there are no significant numbers of nutmeg deaths and many hard drug deaths.