[makmanalp]

This is just pure bullshit. While I'm all for drug decriminalization, I'm always stunned by the dumb half-truths its proponents come up with as justification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myristicin

> It should also be added that when consuming raw nutmeg, only 5-15% of the mass consumed is an essential oil fraction, of which only roughly 4% is myristicin,[9] indicating the amount present overall in the nut is from 0.2-0.6%.

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/Chem_Background/ExSumPdf...

> Symptoms usually appear three to six hours after ingestion of 1-3 whole nutmegs or 5-15 gm of the grated spice.

Abnormally large quantities of a substance may be poisonous? Surprise! There is no WAY anywhere even close to that amount gets in anything we give to children. It takes my family several years to get through a single nutmeg. Myristicin is also part of anise, dill, carrot, fennel and black pepper.

[bane]

You have a funny way of disproving me.

"This is just pure bullshit."

Followed by a list of information about the dangerous psychoactive compound in nutmeg.

5-15 grams (on the low end) is not a lot of food item.

A teaspoon = about 4grams.

A tablespoon = about 14 grams.

Here's 64.9 grams for less than $5. http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Organic-Nutmeg-CERTIFIED-ORGANI...

From http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/INDEX57DE.HTM?objectid=E88175E0-BDB...

"Ingestion of five or more grams of nutmeg causes acute nutmeg poisoning, which includes giddiness, hallucinations, and feelings of depersonalization. Symptoms usually appear three to six hours after ingestion of 1-3 whole nutmegs or 5-15 gm of the grated spice. Recovery usually occurs within 24 hours. Nevertheless, duration of action may extend beyond several days and even include death. /Nutmeg/ [Green RC, Jr; JAMA 171 (10): 1342-4 (1959); Painter JC et al; Clin Toxicol 4 (1): 1-4 (1971)] PEER REVIEWED"

So basically, somebody trying to repeat the cinnamon challenge, but with nutmeg, and ate a heaping tablespoon of the stuff would introduce a lethal dosage of the substance into their body.

So your argument is, because you personally only tap a little on your eggnog once a year, it's suddenly not a lethally toxic psychoactive substance in doses not much above the range that people might use in cooking?

http://homecooking.about.com/library/archive/blspice3.htm (recipes that all use at least 1/4 teaspoon of nutmeg)

[bane]

meta:...and here come the downvotes for presenting factual information with no rebutal. I hate to say this is typical on HN, but it's definitely something that occurs in certain "hot-topic" discussions. A downvote here without rebutal is a bit like:"no! you're wrong!"

"based on what specifically?"

"you're just wrong!"

Common HN, we're above that kind of childishness...let's get specific.

Either nutmeg contains Myristicin, which is deadly at about .15 grams of the substance, which occurs in natural concentrations in nutmeg or it doesn't. (it does) We're not talking about car loads of the stuff.

A dosage of about a tablespoon of nutmeg contains a lethal amount of Myristicin, or it doesn't. (it does)

We appear to be in violent agreement about the percentages, dosages and other particulars, so what parts of my statement appears to be the problem?

For fun, I looked up some more:

Comprehensive Review in Toxicology for Emergency Clinicians, Bryson, P. D.

"The chemical agents which are thought to give nutmeg its psychoactive effects are myristicin and elemicin, which are amphetamine-like compounds similar to MDMA...The ingestion of as little as 1 to 2 tablespoonsful, which may contain 5 to 10g in each tablespoon, is capable or producing psychoactive effects described as hallucinations, euphoria, and other distortions of reality as well as many undesirable effects.

The symptoms begin 3 to 6 hours after ingestion and generally resolve in 24 hours. The first CNS effects are giddiness, tingling, dizziness, apprehension, anxiety, and a generalized feedling of excitement. Later, euphoria, visual hallucinations, distortions in time and space, reality detachment, sensations of limb loss, and fear of death may occur. This may progress to extreme drowsiness and lethargy that persist for a day or more."

And another from Emergency Medicine News "The study itself conducted a retrospective chart review of the California Poison Control System electronic database for cases of isolated nutmeg exposure during the years 1997 – 2008. The authors identified 119 single-substance exposures, collected descriptive data, and compared intentional recreational abuse (86 cases) with unintentional exposures (33 cases)."

On Elemicin, the other psychoactive component of nutmeg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elemicin

"One study found it to comprise 2.4% of the fresh essential oil."

So nutmeg is probably toxic in slightly lower doses than I've been claiming, but it's hard to find specific toxicity studies that isolate both compounds.

[makmanalp]

I know how much a gram is.

A gram is a unit of weight. A teaspoon is a unit of volume. A teaspoon of some things might be 4 grams, but not your average grated nutmeg.

Now even if I generously took your large overestimation as fact, and by my sheer lack of luck some person ate a whole pie by themselves, the amount of nutmeg is below even the lower end of that range (5 to 15 grams, by the way, not 0.05 to 0.15 grams).

Finally, you conveniently ignored the last part of my previous post. There are many household substances that you can take undue amounts of. This does not make them more dangerous than most hard drugs. How many nutmeg deaths have there been recorded? How many hard drug deaths have there been recorded? I think number of deaths is a good enough metric of danger. I'll let the jury decide this one.

If you care about making a proper argument, at least use acetaminophen. That's a substance that has actually taken a significant number of lives. And for the record, it wasn't me who downvoted you.

[bane]

Actually, a gram is a unit of mass.

[JabavuAdams]

Pedantry. We can argue about that when the Martian and Moon colonists go on Nutmeg binges.

EDIT> ... but it won't matter since their scales will be calibrated. If you use a scale you're measuring weight, not mass.

[bane]

sigh at no point are either of you refuting the danger of myristicin and elemicin in nutmeg household quantities of nutmeg. It's just a bunch of pedantic arguing over grams and volumes, and "oh yeah! I'll show you, here are more foods with these dangerous psychoactives in them!"

Probably some of the most bizarre arguments I've ever seen. If it wasn't for the downvotes I'd think you both were agreeing with me.

[makmanalp]

Wow, you really addressed all my counterarguments with that one. Doesn't really change your overestimation and doesn't really change the fact that there are no significant numbers of nutmeg deaths and many hard drug deaths.

[bane]

sigh at no point are either of you refuting the danger of myristicin and elemicin in nutmeg household quantities of nutmeg. It's just a bunch of pedantic arguing over grams and volumes, and "oh yeah! I'll show you, here are more foods with these dangerous psychoactives in them!"

Probably some of the most bizarre arguments I've ever seen. If it wasn't for the downvotes I'd think you both were agreeing with me.

Specifically to your points, thought you haven't refuted the specific dangers of the two psychoactive components of nutmeg.

"(5 to 15 grams, by the way, not 0.05 to 0.15 grams)"

The smaller figure is the amount of myristicin required to induce death in a grown adult, using your own math.

Most pie recipes I've seen use about 1/4 to 1/2 of a teaspoon of nutmeg powder (I linked to some recipes since you didn't notice).

"There are many household substances that you can take undue amounts of. This does not make them more dangerous than most hard drugs. "

Sure, I could drink a gallon of bleach, or drink water until my blood thins out and I die (it happens) http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman...

Is that your hangup? That a tablespoon is more than most people would consume? Really? Wow...pedantic.

Did I not even link to a study of ER visits where the only cause was nutmeg consumption? Are you even clicking the links I provided?

Just because most people don't do a thing doesn't make it dangerous. Most people don't consume gasoline either.