[tchalla]

It is respectful to at least attempt to pronounce names from different cultures. In many cases, I totally understand it is difficult. In those cases, an attempt is great. In this case, the syllable F exists in Latin and I don't see why it.

I must say, I have seen many many times a lack of interest to even attempt to pronounce of even write a name properly. One example which comes to my mind is Ghandi instead of Gandhi.

[sillyquiet]

To re-iterate my point, it's not about 'respect' (respect for whom, exactly and why?) it's about communication.

If I were trying to say the word 'Volkswagen' to a German speaking person, I would do my best to pronounce it in a way they would understand. As most of the time I ever say the word 'Volkswagen' out loud it's to my fellow English speakers, pronouncing it in the expected English way seems way less pretentious and way more effective.

[mixedCase]

>seems way less pretentious

Or you could help do your part in normalizing pronouncing things correctly instead of perpetuating the perception that it's somehow "pretentious".

[fastball]

They're speaking English. The correct pronunciation of a "V" is in fact to make the english "V" sound.

[Bud]

Nope. Proper nouns are to be pronounced in whatever way is dictated by the country of origin.

Also, no, English is not very reliable when it comes to spelling vs. pronunciation.

(Former diction teacher, here.)

[fastball]

I'm going to avoid being snarky and point out this is merely the way you taught it. There is not hard and fast rule that says you have to do it this way.

Also, Vs are actually pretty consistent in English. Can't even think of a word with a V where the V doesn't sound like a V.

[Bud]

What's interesting here is that the exception proves the rule.

V is actually the only letter in English that is never silent.

Most other letters also have various possible renderings into pronunciation, especially the vowels—"i" for instance can end up being at least 5 different vowel sounds and also some consonant sounds.

So yes. As I pointed out, English is extremely irregular orthographically, in stark contrast to languages like German, French, or Italian, all of which have extremely reliable and simple pronunciation rules.

[sillyquiet]

The pronunciation is already normalized in English, and most people already pronounce it correctly in English for other English speakers.

Expecting non-German people to speak with German pronunciation is plain arrogant.

[mlyle]

In practice, if a name has a common pronunciation within English, you show respect by using that pronunciation when speaking to native English speakers.

Otherwise you just cause confusion. The adapted names have their own history.

If you insist on saying København and not Copenhagen, you get to have a little pretentious discussion explaining what you meant to every person you talk to. Ditto for Folks-vagen.

[tchalla]

> In practice, if a name has a common pronunciation within English, you show respect by using that pronunciation when speaking to native English speakers.

Here's how I read this. "We as an English speaking group will continue to not make an attempt to pronounce it right even if we can. Once we don't we will have a common pronunciation that doesn't fit the original one. Once it becomes common, we will get offended if it is not pronounced in the common way that we as a group chose to actively ignore in the first place. If the original speakers insist, we will call them pretentious."

[mlyle]

> If the original speakers insist, we will call them pretentious."

Way to overreach way beyond what I originally said. If I was speaking to someone I knew was Dutch, of course I would (try to) say "København." Then they'd probably laugh at me and we'd agree to call it Copenhagen. :P

Or if I want to read your view in the worst possible way-- similar to how you've read mine-- "People who use the established pronunciation of a loanword or place in their native tongue are wrong. We should always seek to find where we are using words of foreign origin and correct them to be perfectly pronounced in their original tongue, even when this causes confusion and isn't helpful to people from the original place. Japanese gairaigo should be abolished and they should just say those words in the correct original English (or German or French). And those damn Frenchmen should stop calling the place I live Californie dans les Etats Unis, which is nothing like how I say it, and should stop calling me 'Michel' which sounds a whole lot like the female version of my name"

[tchalla]

I'd like to take a stock of how this conversation went.

1.0 (me) : "It is respectful to attempt pronunciation if possible".

1.1 (you) : "There is a common English pronunciation. It's pretentious if you don't use the common pronunciation. Show respect to the English speaker!"

1.2 (me) : "The common pronunciation exists because of the lack of attempt in the first place. It's not pretentious. "

1.3 (you) : "It is established, we should use common pronunciation"

You turned the initial conversation about making an attempt to be kind and respectful towards non-English speakers into something else. Almost feels like victim blaming to me. Once again, to be clear - we should make an attempt. Just because there's an established pronunciation (or spelling) doesn't mean it is right. Overtime, established pronunciation can move towards the original pronunciation. The right pronunciation is what the speaker wants to have. You, me or the English society don't have any say in it. It doesn't matter if it is established or not. Going the extra mile in kindness helps; calling others pretentious because they ask you to empathise doesn't.

[mlyle]

Did you miss where I said:

> you show respect by using that pronunciation when speaking TO NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKERS.

or

> If I was speaking to someone I knew was Dutch, of course I would (try to) say "København."

Because what you're accusing me of-- and the words you're putting in my mouth "There is a common English pronunciation. It's pretentious if you don't use the common pronunciation. Show respect to the English speaker!"-- make no sense in that context.

German is full of exonyms. All languages are full of exonyms and weird pronunciations of foreign words. It is OK.

[chki]

I'm not sure if this is a joke I don't get but speaking about weird cultural mix-ups: Copenhagen is not related to the Netherlands. I'm actually glad that people are getting EU states all mixed up but we're not there yet, guys ;)

[mlyle]

Hahaha. Woops, Dutch, Danish, what's the difference? ;)

This is really pretty sad on my part. I was just in Copenhagen for 3 weeks a year ago, just before COVID. :P

[da_big_ghey]

I know persons who are doing this in times. A example is a person I am knowing who say "Mexico" with Spanish accent. A first problem is this person is not a speaker of Spanish and so it is bothering on me for bad pronounsing and no interests in improvement and not in learning more Spanish. A second problem is it disruptes conversation when a person is slipping into different accent without reasoning. A third problem is it takes persons I am knowing who are not speaker of Spanish extra time for to process these remarks. I am not seeing any good reason. There exists also a difference between nation name, is fixed, and brand, for which the job is make friendly for a consumer.

[mlyle]

Yah. It can also sometimes be difficult to distinguish between an attempt to use the native pronunciation out of respect vs. mockery. I know people that if I heard them saying "Me-hi-co" it would almost certainly be to exaggerate foreignness and to be racist.

[reaperducer]

It is respectful to at least attempt to pronounce names from different cultures

In many cases, it is unnecessary and only makes the speaker look foolish.

"Hyundai" is pronounces its own brand name differently in American and Korean TV commercials. Is Hyundai being disrespectful to Koreans?

The goal is to communicate. Making communication more difficult is the opposite of the goal.

[libria]

> In many cases, it is unnecessary and only makes the speaker look foolish.

Comedic skits touch on this [1][2] and though a caricature, I think they capture the gist of how it's perceived when attempted.

I think it stems from a desire for "cultural wokeness" which is a good thing and has its place, but as you say when communication is the goal, speak the language of the receiver.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWMp_z7Jnxw

[natch]

Do you pronounce "Volvo" as "Fuhao" since it is Chinese owned now and that's their name for it there?

[atleta]

I found a YT video saying it's "wo er wo". Which suggests they have a hard time pronouncing it, which shouldn't come as a surprise given how different their phonemes are.

Approximating it, because you can't pronounce it is one thing. Not giving a shit, even though you do have the same word (i.e. folk) is another one.

[ricardobayes]

The realest of questions there. Or how Chinese bought Rover and renamed it to Roewe. It's a China-only brand now.

[ike77]

I would agree for a physical person name.

But for a brand definitely not. It's the job of the brand creators to make sure that the name can be read and pronounced in the various target markets.

[chefkoch]

To be fair, when the brand was created the germans wanted to change the target markets.

[felipelemos]

Funny enough in my native language (portuguese), the h have no meaning on both cases.

[fermienrico]

This is an unreasonable expectation. People should try but if they don't, there is no malice here.

There are many languages around the world and it is impossible to remember every nuance of how to pronounce things. Ghandi is common pronounciation even in Germany. The Japanese might pronounce it something else.

[tchalla]

> Ghandi is common pronounciation even in Germany.

I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation to write the word "Gandhi" as "Gandhi". That's how he wrote the name, that's how he signed it and that's the actual spelling. I can understand the difficulty in pronunciation but getting the name right while typing it out is unforgivable in this century.

[fermienrico]

I meant the pronunciation, not the spelling.

Also, learning to forgive is a rare virtue these days. Entitlement and expection creates conflict. Learn to forgive others and you'll have a better time with everyone else. No one who even spells it as Ghandi means any malice or offense. So, it is a matter of technicality. Let go.

[tchalla]

I agree - learning to forgive is rare virtue. For example, I think we should also "learn to forgive" to people who point out that Gandhi is the right spelling. It's not meant as many malice of offence. So, it is a matter of technicality. Let go.

[fermienrico]

You're forgiven :), cheers!