[mhd]

We had some bad experiences with "Deutschland über Alles" a couple of years ago, so "proud to be a German" and things like that are frowned upon, as they evoke the wrong images.

I leave the discussion about the merits of patriotism out of this, as it really doesn't matter that much here. This is more about advertising than content, and repeating the now unsung verses of the national anthem is generally considered a bit more than just a faux pas and causes legions of British reporters to perk up their ears...

[lupatus]

Two points:

1. "Das Lied der Deutschen," which starts with the phrase, "Deutschland, Deutschland über Alles," happens to have been penned by one of my ancestors, August Heinrich Hoffman von Fallersleben. Interestingly, it is not about Germany conquering foreign nations, but how the German-speaking peoples should unite in a republic instead of a rabble of principalities and kingdoms. Hoffman von Fallersleben wrote it in 1841 in support of the liberal revolutionary ideals of pan-German unity (as opposed to the reactionary aristocratic positions).

2. Granted Nazis and the Holocaust are bad things, but what is wrong with having pride in your country? Nations, in both the sense of geography and the sense of culturally related groups, are literally and figuratively large families. Telling someone that he should not have pride in his country because it infringes your sensibilities is telling him that he should not have pride in himself - and that is very offensive. It says that he has nothing worth preserving or cultivating and that all he may be is repulsive. Remember, no nation's history is blemishless.

For those curious, I am a flag-waving American and proud of it.

[radiosnob]

i'm not sure if you're alluding to something in particular or trying to make a joke.

but saying that its frowned upon to be proud of your own country (regardless of country), is to me, not a nice thing to say. singling germany out forever because of past events is dis-ingenious.

i would say that anyone whose nose gets bent out of shape because a german says they are proud of their country probably needs to take a second look at germany, and then themselves. and if a reporter is doing this, then it is most likely just stirring the pot

[mhd]

It's not just patriotism and being proud of your country. It's the specific phrases. "Deutschland über Alles" (as in the original text of the hacker) is pretty tied to a specific era and best left alone as a phrase. Actually, "I'm proud to be German" as a phrase is tied to right-wing propaganda, too.

The Wikipedia article on patriotism has a nice statistic, although it's a bit old[1]. A few countries were asked how proud they were of their country, from a scale of 1 to 4. Most of them are in the 3 range (with the US leading with 3.92), Germany had a 1.37.

Again, this isn't really about what you want to express, it's how you do it. And a phrase like "Deutschland über Alles" is basically somewhat between "The South will rise again" and "White Power".

Personally, I find team jersey mentality like that a bit narcissistic, but if it floats your boat... But if you're about to improve the image of something, you shouldn't use the terminology of those you're opposing. That just makes it look like a battle between two equally wrong splinter groups of the same cause.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism

[radiosnob]

ok, I think I know what you're going for. My response was based on the fact that many germans feel that they cannot express their patriotism because of how other countries/people/stereotypes will view them. intentions be damned. that was one of the great things about the 2006 world cup here. that all disappeared.

I think it is safe to say that what was written in the article was done so deliberately to get a rise from people who want to be a bit "ra-ra".

[cipherpunk]

"The working class have no country". Nationalism is just a way to consolidate state power, and breeds strife amongst nations. It inevitably leads to a us-and-them scenario. The sooner it is stamped out, the better.

[lupatus]

Nations are literally and figuratively large families. For example, roughly 25% of the USA populace claim descent from the Pilgrims[1] - a small group of ~100 people.

Nationalism is simply having pride in your family. To "stamp out" pride in your nation means that you have to "stamp out" pride in your family. The family is the basis of Western Civilization[2], and if you destroy the family, you get a lot of very bad and unwanted things as a consequence (like mass welfare and a halt to scientific progress).

[1]http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/25/us/not-quite-your-ancestor... [2]http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/marriage/mf0060.ht...

[nickik]

I'm not a big fan of patriotism either but saying your proud of your country is basiclly what almost everybody in every country sais.

[darklajid]

I agree with his points (now): It's not the pride in itself (we can argue if that is helpful, but that's not what mhd critizises). It's the phrase used (or - a couple of phrases, plus maybe the general tone) that leads to really nasty subtext.

The translation is incomplete. He didn't write "Ich bin stolz auf Deutschland" (I'm proud of Germany), he used "Ich bin ein stolzer Deutscher" (I'm a proud German), a phrase that is heavily (ab)used by the far right, the extremists.

[nickik]

Im from Switzerland im well awair of what you translated I agree that the phrase is (ab)used by the extremist but just because somebody sais it I would say he is a extremist. A person that hacked NPD isn't like an extremist just somebody that probebly is just a bit to much of a patriot. You can find enought people like that and the are not all extremists.

[JabavuAdams]

You must not be Canadian.

The whole "I'm proud to be X" would sound a bit rude or ignorant in my circles.

[anamax]

> The whole "I'm proud to be X" would sound a bit rude or ignorant in my circles.

Of course it's rude. Everyone knows that you're supposed to say "I'm happy/proud to not be an American."

[JabavuAdams]

No, that's not what I'm getting at. I'm trying to convey a different perspective.

For example very few houses or business here have flags. It's mostly a car-dealership / cottage thing.

It's actually just jarring to see how many flags are on display in the US even without getting into political sympathies. It's the visual equivalent of someone shouting in public.

[anamax]

> For example very few houses or business here have flags.

That's because you know that most of you are "not American" when you're in Canada.

Travelling Canadians outside the country tend to sprout flags.

[JabavuAdams]

Canadian flags. In Canada. As a comment on Canadian culture and US culture-shock. More clear?

[nickik]

My point is that just because somebody sais something like that you should just juge him to be a nazi. Spezially if that someone just hacked some nazis.