[garg]

The violent attack on the capitol was the result of fake news media without anyone ever inciting violence. They simply need to repeat over and over that the election was stolen and that caused the violence and people died.

Incorrectly yelling Fire in a crowded theater is illegal and no one is inciting violence in that situation either. There are many commonalities between broadcasting fake news for profit and propaganda, and incorrectly yelling fire in a crowd. Both end up resulting in public safety hazards.

It is a difficult problem to deal with because there is always the possibility of corruption and a reduction in genuine free speech when there is regulation involved. But it is a problem that has to be solved.

It is also no longer social media only, it is Fox, OANN, NewsMax, Sinclair, etc that are increasingly filling up air time with lies solely to make a buck.

[dnissley]

> But it is a problem that has to be solved.

Do you think the solution should come from the government? It seems implied here but just checking.

[Retric]

Do you have any other options? I don’t care who solves it, but when a company is run for the intent to produce propaganda it’s pointless to ask them to self regulate.

[dnissley]

There is always the option to let the issue sort itself out. To allow space and time for a solution to emerge.

We should be careful not to fall into action bias. E.g. the thought that we need to do something, anything, since that can lead to counterproductive solutions.

I've begun to look at information problems like this not too differently than viruses of thought. Right now these viruses are running rampant because we've never had to deal with anything like them before on such a wide scale. It seems perfectly possible to me that over time we will develop social standards that immunize us from these viruses. More and more people will begin to disregard clickbait, outrage-inducing headlines, etc. They will simply become less salient the more and more we experience them.

Reframing the question at hand around this metaphor: What would an effective vaccine look like for these thought viruses? I'm not at all sure, but I can't imagine any kind of partisan response that would work, since these viruses infect left and right alike, and many people will bend over backwards to argue otherwise. Until we can face that fact honestly, I don't see how we could even begin to have a productive conversation about a solution.

[nobody9999]

>Reframing the question at hand around this metaphor: What would an effective vaccine look like for these thought viruses? I'm not at all sure, but I can't imagine any kind of partisan response that would work, since these viruses infect left and right alike, and many people will bend over backwards to argue otherwise. Until we can face that fact honestly, I don't see how we could even begin to have a productive conversation about a solution.

Actually, there are effective ways to identify the credibility of information. From the well known CRAAP.[0] test to "lateral reading"[1] and a host of related [2][3][4][5] methods to clarify the credibility of online (or offline, for that matter) material. There are even curricula[6] that addresses these issues.

And no, none of these methods are partisan. Rather, they give the reader tools to help them determine the validity and credibility of information.

That many folks don't do so is definitely a problem. One of the less involved methods is "lateral reading" as described in [1]. I heartily recommend it, as well as other methods.

[0] https://researchguides.ben.edu/source-evaluation

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/18/opinion/fake-news-media-a...

[2] https://www.library.georgetown.edu/tutorials/research-guides...

[3] https://paperpile.com/g/find-credible-sources/

[4] https://libanswers.tcl.edu/faq/6286

[5] https://www.virtualsalt.com/evalu8it.htm

[6] https://www.schrockguide.net/critical-evaluation.html

[dnissley]

They're not partisan, no, but as you kind of allude to ("many folks don't do so") a prerequisite for using them properly is a certain ideological flexibility that is... less common these days. If someone is ideologically possessed, they will use these tools to skewer outgroup ideas but not apply them to ingroup ideas. As the letters in this very post demonstrate even our congress people can't apply them to their own thinking!

And as far as a governing apparatus, I'm not sure these tools really help provide the structure needed to declare any given piece of media misinformation or not.

[nobody9999]

>And as far as a governing apparatus, I'm not sure these tools really help provide the structure needed to declare any given piece of media misinformation or not.

If my post came across as suggesting that the methods I linked to should be used in some sort of [quasi]-governmental way to determine what is "good" or "bad" information, then I apologize.

My focus was strictly on answering GP's question[0] on an individual basis:

"What would an effective vaccine look like for these thought viruses?"

I was also trying to imply that there are already ways to "separate the wheat from the chaff" that are quite well-known and well thought out.

But they are just tools. And what use someone (doesn't) makes with such tools is up to them.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26244080

[kelnos]

> If someone is ideologically possessed, they will use these tools to skewer outgroup ideas but not apply them to ingroup ideas.

Not just that, but ideologically-possessed people will flat-out reject a truth-finding methodology that results in conflicts with their worldview.

There's no point in giving someone the tools to find the truth if they're so wedded to their "truth" that evidence will not make them change their minds.

[elihu]

> Reframing the question at hand around this metaphor: What would an effective vaccine look like for these thought viruses?

Well, if stopping disinformation is too hard for various reasons, maybe we can focus on the problem from the other direction: we need to find ways for accurate information to be easier to find and to verify.

If you think of misinformation more like a bacteria, then one of the common causes of bacterial infections is that the regular good bacteria have been wiped out for one reason or another. Antibiotics might help, or they might make the problem worse.

I do think we have some serious institutional problems that are preventing the usual sources of accurate information from operating effectively. News that's become overtly partisan, and an economic model that selects for the most sensational headlines. Scientific research findings that aren't reproducible. Universities becoming increasingly run like profit-focused corporations, and too expensive for many to attend due to lack of public funding. Misinformation is always a problem even in the best of times, but it can also fill the void when there's a lack of accurate information.

I don't know what the solution is. I tend towards more distributed models of information sharing that have fewer institutional gatekeepers declaring who the experts are, but I don't know exactly what that looks like, or how to do that in a way that tends towards more credibility rather than less.

[Retric]

So in other words no, but you don’t think it’s a long term problem?

I honestly think your fath in humanity is refreshing. Personally, I think this is just reversion to the mean where simply lying was historically the most common response.

[rayiner]

> I honestly think your fath in humanity is refreshing. Personally, I think this is just reversion to the mean where simply lying was historically the most common response.

Its your faith in humanity that's "refreshing" if you think giving the people with the guns the power to police speech is the proper solution.

[Retric]

Don’t put words in my mouth, I didn’t suggest government regulation of speech.

Though I will admit debate rules where each side gets equal time back to back to be somewhat humorous. That’s mostly my love of chaos and the spectacle of such an idea.

[garg]

In my previous comment, I am roughly equating incorrectly yelling fire in a crowded theater with broadcasting fake news to millions of people.

If there were a way to clearly differentiate between free speech and fake news, then yes, I would support legal ramifications for spreading blatant intentional fake news created solely as profitable propaganda that causes harm, and treating that as intentionally lying about fire in a crowd.

I don't know what the best organization or process for setting that up would be. After a certain number of complaints, can we transparently look into the owners of the news media, their revenue streams, their involvement with foreign governments, to determine whether a company is a legitimate news source or not? Can we get non-profits and media-freedom watchdogs involved to ensure fairness? Can we get the fairness doctrine running again? I don't see why not.

[PixyMisa]

> Incorrectly yelling Fire in a crowded theater is illegal

No it's not. See Brandenburg v. Ohio.

[garg]

It was made more specific in Brandenburg v. Ohio but it was not overturned. ie, if someone is falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater which is "speech brigaded with action" then it is a situation where a person could be prosecuted for speech. They used that very example.

Edit:

People can read it themselves: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/395/444

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

Fire in a crowded theater is specifically mentioned as the sort of case in which a person could be prosecuted for speech.

[thaumasiotes]

Why was this downvoted? garg is quite plainly correct:

> The example usually given by those who would punish speech is the case of one who falsely shouts fire in a crowded theatre.

> This is, however, a classic case where speech is brigaded with action. [...] They are indeed inseparable and a prosecution can be launched for the overt acts actually caused.

> Apart from rare instances of that kind, speech is, I think, immune from prosecution.

This couldn't be more explicit in saying that falsely shouting fire in a crowded theatre is a prosecutable offense. (As long as an injury occurred.)

[Dracophoenix]

And "speech brigaded with action" would still have to pass the muster of being "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action". One would have to prove a criminal element (almost always a mens rea) in addition to such speech rather than holding the presumption that the words themselves carry a distinguishing factor among other things. You're right to say it's prosecutable (although technically anything is prosecutable), however what you appear to allude to (and I could be wrong in assuming that of your claim) is that "yelling fire in a crowded theater" is prima facie unprotected speech. If so, then that hasn't been true since the Brandenburg test was instituted.

[InfiniteBeing]

Meanwhile the left dominated media was a major enflamer of the violence of BLM and Antifa.

[slowmovintarget]

The violent attack on the capitol was the result of the sitting President of the United States claiming the election was stolen and telling them to march on the capitol.

That is decidedly not a social media thing.

Social media gave him the mob, but it was a man with a podium that incited the action.

[thrwaway2day]

> The violent attack on the capitol was the result of the sitting President of the United States claiming the election was stolen and telling them to march on the capitol.

If true, this would be much more convincing with a direct quotation and a source, rather than your interpretation.

[slowmovintarget]

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-resolutio...

[meragrin_]

> we're going to walk down to the Capitol, and we're going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women, and we're probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them.

> I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.

https://www.npr.org/2021/02/10/966396848/read-trumps-jan-6-s...