[btinker]

> Wayland works for almost everyone, and works for more people than is even possible with X11. Most of the lies you’ve heard about ways that it’s broken are just that: lies. And if you insist on living in that fantasy, then keep it to yourself, asshole.

But it doesn't work for me (aka. important features are buggy in the gnome/wayland/whatever stack I am using if I select wayland in gdm). Am I now a lier or an unimportant victim of the March of technology?

I am using wayland on my laptop anyway, as it comes with better scaling. I actually want to like it and I am very thankful for the developers putting so much work into it.

But the rollout, especially of gnome-wayland, was a disaster. It wasn't ready* when it came to fedora and it wasn't ready when it first came to Ubuntu and it is barely ready today. The developers (and some diehard fans) repeatly insisting it was robbed many of any faith in the project.

People are saying so much about it because they tried and something broke. And yes it may be QT's (still problems with clipboard) or Firefox's or Gnome's or Nvidia's (half of all linux desktops) fault, not the Wayland core teams or the Wayland protocol's. Doesn't matter in the end.

* With ready I mean feature parity with gnome-x11. Working for "almost everyone" (and with a very, very, significant almost at that nvidia) is just not good enough. Not if you want to replace one of the most important components of a user's desktops. At least for my day to day usage it is pros and cons, but all the pros are something we learned to live without, all the cons are fresh wounds.

[ddevault]

>But it doesn't work for me (aka. important features are buggy in the gnome/wayland/whatever stack I am using if I select wayland in gdm).

GNOME doesn't work for you. GNOME uses Wayland, but the bugs you experienced are not the fault of Wayland. They're the fault of GNOME.

GNOME is a dumpster fire and its premature roll-out to Fedora, Ubuntu, etc was very badly done. None of that has any bearing on Wayland, except to fuel the flames for spiteful people who choose to use the botched GNOME roll-out to harass anyone who has anything to do with Wayland.

[btinker]

> GNOME doesn't work for you. GNOME uses Wayland, but the bugs you experienced are not the fault of Wayland. They're the fault of GNOME.

Yes, but I, and I believe most people talking about Wayland mean "user experience on current Wayland implementations", of course.

> None of that has any bearing on Wayland

No, Wayland is not a project that can stand for itself. It drives, needs and causes further work and implementation in compositors, Window libraries, applications, distributions, etc.

Wayland on it's own is a academic coriosity. Wayland that "works" for anyone is a interplay between diverse forms of software implemting or relying on parts of it. Getting Wayland to work is were the problems are, not in the protocol (at least I assume so, I don't have any real insight into it).

And that "Wayland stack" is not (completely) working for me.

Then again I don't post on the Wayland bug tracker, but on the gnome one and I don't want to make excuses for

> spiteful people who choose to use the botched GNOME roll-out to harass anyone who has anything to do with Wayland

Harrasment has no place in in this discussion, no matter what one thinks of Wayland.

... But op was not really about that (at least I didn't understand it like that). It was about "wayland not working" being lies and people not getting it being either malicious or so fooled they are living in a fantasy.

[whatisthisfield]

Maybe GNOME doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago.

GNOME works for almost everyone. Most of the lies you’ve heard about ways that it’s broken are just that: lies. And if you insist on living in that fantasy, then keep it to yourself.

[ddevault]

Problems with GNOME are not a fantasy.

Fantasy: Wayland does not support screen capture.

This criticism is not legitimate. In actual truth, many Wayland compositors do support screen capture.

Not fantasy: GNOME on Wayland does not support server-side decorations.

This is a legitimate criticism of GNOME.

[whatisthisfield]

> Not fantasy: GNOME on Wayland does not support server-side decorations.

So GNOME doesn't support your precious use-case, but it works perfectly fine for most users without server-side decorations.

This doesn't make GNOME a "dumpster fire" to anyone except the "Wayland sucks!" crowd. Or more of a dumpster fire than, say, Sway: I'm positive one can find a feature that Sway doesn't support.

[ddevault]

GNOME is a dumpster fire is a personal judgement based on a lot of different factors.

But yes, if GNOME or Sway is missing a feature then you want, then that's on them. It would speak ill of GNOME or Sway. But it usually does not speak ill of Wayland, which is the fallacy many, many, many people make, and then fill my inbox up with hateful shit over stuff that Sway actually supports!