[slykar]

Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option.

Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand!

For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by point and if you do not understand something, tough luck, the professor has already moved to the next exercise.

The worst part is that you have to spend 6-8 hours a day, 5 days a week like this and then you still need to find online materials to actually learn the thing. Some people have to work too.

Did I mention 2 hours of commute time every day?

[randomsearch]

> Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand!

Ok. That's a win for remote.

Now my turn: how easy is it to gauge the mood of your entire class, turn to the person next to you and whisper a question or look at their notes? Go for coffee with classmates afterwards to discuss? Pull the lecturer aside or knock on their door later that day if you're stuck? Meet older students and grad students who can help you and inspire you?

People made the same "it's the future" argument for remote education when MOOCs launched. PG argues that uni's will still survive because they are certificate authorities. Both are wrong.

Peer learning is where it's at. And it's being immersed in that environment 24/7 that makes universities such special places. The learning goes beyond your set classes too - it's social, physical, it's relationships, it's hobbies and past-times and networks that will be the foundation of your identity and your life.

What we're talking about is that vs yet another Zoom call.

[noobly]

What I would want, and what makes sense to me, is a system that uses online material and lectures in conjunction with an in person, immersive physical meeting place where questions may be asked and problems worked through or tips given. I think that's the best of both worlds and utilizes the low-latency environment of a classroom best, while still capturing the in-person benefits you mentioned.

Unfortunately, class time is generally largely spent observing lecture, and the real meat of the learning is generally spent alone in a high latency environment (with feedback available via email or forums). I don't like going to class just to watch a video, and going home just to do problems out of a book (by myself), and that has been my experience so far.

[unreal6]

Some of my courses in college have just flipped to this model where most of class time is spent problem-solving (to greater or lesser degrees) and it's been incredibly effective. Granted, this is at a small liberal arts college, but learning through collaboration has been much more effective than just attending lectures (that I and many others zone out of)

[bocklund]

This is the flipped classroom model. Definitely not widespread, but it’s gaining popularity, even in universities. The system is slow to change.

[lgvld]

Exactly what I am dreaming of. :-)

[yters]

Personally class time in STEM courses has always been a waste for me. If it wasn't required for my degrees, I would just learn everything on my own, pass the tests and complete the assignments. OTOH I also attended a great books discussion based course and there the class time was essential to really dig into the texts. However, even that can be zoomified with a disciplined enough group.

[randcraw]

Yeah, I'd be happy with a self study model where I could also ask occasional questions of a teaching assistant or better-informed peer, ideally over a voice connection so the latency between questions is minimized. Most online teaching models lack this but could benefit greatly from adding just a little rapid give-and-take to resolve the inevitable obstruction.

[slykar]

> turn to the person next to you and whisper a question or look at their notes?

Person next to you has the same low quality notes you do. In my group we designated a single person to take notes and after the class you just snapped a photo, since no other materials were provided. Other people were listening and trying to understand the subject. Taking notes is distracting you from learning.

Making friends in a class of 100-200 people is hard. My friend went to a Berlin university. You are just a number there. I find it much easier to engage in a discussion using a forum.

> Meet older students

How do you approach them? You have no idea who they are. You are never in class with them. University is basically the same model as high school here. You are not picking subjects or classes, you have to follow a script. You only meet students of your year.

There are some sorts of after hours interest circles, but they start after your 6 hours of learning.

Peer learning can also be done online or after an online course.

The good parts of university are the ones that can be done outside of it, hence there's no need to visit the building at all.

[bitstan]

I think when VR technology improves a bit more it'll be the superior learning experience.

Imagine learning history interactively. Don't just read about Julius Caesar being stabbed, why not stab him yourself?

You could explore physics in a sandbox environment. Learn geography by going there. Practice theater by performing.

Grabbing a cup of coffee is fun but so is hopping into a game of virtual paintball.

[isaacgreyed]

I'm not really sure if actually doing something will be effective for say learning history. I think of all the odd activities teachers had me do, and I kind of wish they just told me the story, but I'm a guy who now listens to history podcast so may just be personal.

Also think of all the odd physics demonstrations and I'm not sure they really often enhanced my knowledge more than a gif would of especially versus the expense. Does anyone know of any research around this area?

[Nbox9]

What is the rate of data processing of a human’s sensory organs? Until VR output data at that rate to every human sense being in VR will be less stimulating than being in real space. I think this is especially true of social environments, were subtle body language, facial movements, touch and smell are critically important.

Being around a group of people is easily 20x more stimulating to me than any VR experience I’ve had, and I’ve experience the state of the art in VR. Spending day after day, year after year, going to classes with the same group of peers was very socially validating and helped me be more engaged with my time at school.

[lambda_obrien]

I personally know 3 people who get pretty ill from VR, so that's not an option for everyone.

[jasonjayr]

I've heard accounts of conferences where the attendees ad-hoc setup a collaborate editing environment while the presentation was going on with the facility wifi, and organized notes, formed questions and generally improved the quality of the interaction with the group. IMHO this goes a long away to replacing the "peer to peer" interaction when you're in the audience, and has a potential to engage the learners more.

I imagine K-12 Remote learning is hesitant to do that so as to not lose control of the messaging. The teacher has enough burden to make sure their lesson is communicated effectively; that moderating a realtime chat is just not possible.

From my own anecdotal experience with my kids, I have one is super hesitant to stick their neck out and participate where the whole group can see (either on video, or embarrassed for asking too many questions), where this model might bring more anxiety.

This is frustratingly not an easy problem to solve.

[aloisdg]

In my country, most classroom have an unofficial facebook group or discord channel. My little sister (20y) organizes zoom call for her own group of classroom friend to work together. They work but also chitchat, comment world politics, social issue, etc. It is awesome to assist.

[UncleMeat]

> Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand!

My wife is a professor.

What you say is true for some students. But for some students it appears that paying attention is much harder when it is a video vs the same material presented in a live lecture. I can't fully explain it, but "I struggle to pay attention to video lectures" is a surprisingly common response from people who have been strong students in prior years.

[jrumbut]

Can't pay attention to video lectures at the best of times is part of it, but I also think being consistently understimulated causes people to shut down the learning process.

[randcraw]

I've attended both kinds of credit-granting uni courses, and I agree that watching a recorded video is indeed less involving. But video is also so much easier than a live lecture to stop, rewind, repeat, or play 50% slower/faster that I can't conclude either is clearly superior.

I'd say superiority mostly comes down to the quality of the instruction — clarity, good organization of fundamentals, then broad and deep enumeration of concepts that build meaningfully on those fundamentals. In my experience, few professors value teaching enough to master it. When one does, I'd very much like to be able to attend such a lecture.

Maybe the best of both worlds is to deliberately supplement primary content with outstanding reference material like Kahn Academy or Three Blue One Brown. Being able to drill down on difficult concepts from multiple perspectives is often a great way to resolve obstructions in any kind of teaching method.

[onion2k]

For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by point and if you do not understand something, tough luck, the professor has already moved to the next exercise.

People shouldn't just accept this sort of thing as normal. You're paying (in the US or UK anyway) a lot of money for a degree level education. That means it needs to be fit for purpose, and if you're not learning then it isn't. You need to stop the lecturer and ask them to go over the point you didn't understand, or ask for additional time after the lab, or at a push, make a complaint to the course leader that the lecturer isn't teaching you well enough.

Learning to stand up for yourself and ask for what you need is a big part of the university experience.

[slykar]

Education is "free" (paid by taxes) where I come from (Poland). Private universities are not very popular.

> People shouldn't just accept this sort of thing as normal

It's not "normal", but it's the norm. It's not the fault of the professors, because the truth is they should not teach in the first place, but the education system requires them to.

> make a complaint to the course leader that the lecturer isn't teaching you well enough.

There's no such thing here as the course leader. Most of the time you have a prof. responsible for the theory and another one for the practice.

You can complain to the dean (what multiple students did), but there's no replacement or no one cares.

I don't want to put any blame on the teachers here. I see this as a systemic issue.

[abdullahkhalids]

> Education is "free" (paid by taxes) where I come from (Poland).

If the people of your country are gifting you free education, you have even a higher responsibility to ensure that their efforts are not wasted.

[Kinrany]

> Learning to stand up for yourself and ask for what you need is a big part of the university experience.

You're not graded on standing up for yourself.

In this area universities are not different from standing in line or negotiating a job offer.

[kayodelycaon]

> You need to stop the lecturer and ask them to go over the point you didn't understand, or ask for additional time after the lab, or at a push, make a complaint to the course leader that the lecturer isn't teaching you well enough.

I foresee this strategy ending badly for a number of professors I've had.

[dash2]

Professor here. Any professor that punishes you for asking for stuff/asking for time is not doing their job and you should feel happy to complain about them. Ditto if they bawl you out or make you feel bad. Don't tolerate it.

[FuckButtons]

My lived experience of pre recorded video lectures is they are a poor facsimile for the real thing for 3 main reasons.

1) I can’t ask questions - dynamically engaging with the material during the lecture is far more important for retention than making a perfect set of notes so not having that engagement really reduces your learning.

2) attention span / investment - taking notes amongst your peers who are also doing the same is easier and more enjoyable than doing the same on your own, something that is easier to do takes less of my mental energy which is my most precious resource when I’m trying to actually learn.

3) lack of peer interaction - most of the learning experience that is really beneficial long term isn’t about you having 100% recall on demand of every detail you were taught but how to use the ideas to solve actual problems. Much of that comes through practice and experimentation with your peers, which simply doesn’t work via zoom.

[randcraw]

True, but Q&A makes up a tiny fraction of most lectures I've attended, and attention span can be improved by shortening the duration of each lecture.

However, I'd agree that lack of dynamic peer interaction is a big problem with video-based instruction that hasn't yet been fixed. I've seen attempts to address this like Piazza where students can post questions or answer others', but text-based forums lack graphical or temporal cues that many concept demand. Maybe some sort of multiuser video supplement might help, where the question poser could snip the time mark of a puzzling section from the lecture or an illustration from another video and refer to it in source so others could visualize with a click the point being asked?

[asdff]

>For labs it's not like you get any help either.

That's never been the case in any of my lab classes from multiple departments. The whole reason you have TAs is so you can ask questions constantly and get instant feedback. Stuck on something during a lab? Flag down the TA and they will set you right. Drop your test tube full of precurser during organic chemistry lab on the floor? No worries, the TA appears moments later with an aliquot of precurser to give you so you can proceed with the lab exercise. Motion detector not working during physics lab? The TA gives you a new one out of the equipment closet or helps you troubleshoot the lab software.

I actually taught a remote version of a lab class this semester and it was horrible. You can't learn lab techniques by watching videos and slideshows or using various virtual lab simulation programs; you gotta get your hands on these things. You wouldn't know how finicky a western blot is until you've accidentally ripped your gel cracking it out of the precast case trying to transfer it to your membrane; all you get on the virtual format is 'be careful,' rather than training sufficient to start work in a research lab immediately.

[randcraw]

Yeah, it's tough to learn cadaver-based anatomy at home too.

[ivansavz]

> [...] a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand!

You forgot to mention the most important thing -- the ability to change the playback speed to create the "cognitive load" level engaging for you. This chrome plugin has been a tremendously useful for my learning https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/video-speed-contro... Video speed control during playback is like a impedance-matching transformer between the "bitrate" of the lecturer and the listener.

[HeyLaughingBoy]

>Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters

But is that the default, common experience? I'm asking seriously: I finished my bachelor's 30 years ago and my master's 15 years ago and that has never been my experience.

Our professors were actual people we talked and interacted with, even the boring ones. And they made an effort to teach. Now, I didn't go to a huge "research" university, where I hear it's common to get profs who have no interest in teaching, but what you describe isn't remotely like what I encountered.

[randcraw]

Yeah, the best classes I've attended began with you reading material (textbook or papers) before lecture, then revisiting that content during lecture. Ideally the prof devises a lecture agenda where discussion revolves around subtleties in the material, both clarifying Q&A and implications and exceptions and to the material. Appreciating the context and relevance of your research-based material adds a lot to appreciating how it changed the status quo.

[bachmeier]

You need to find a new university. If your courses are "Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters" then your professor is incompetent or lazy.

[slykar]

> You need to find a new university

Chances are you will have a similar experience. I'm not speaking about a single professor. I'm speaking about 9 out of 10. I'm not blaming professors tough.

My friends have similar experience at other universities in Poland. Friends who went to German universities have a completely different experience. They actually use some LMS, provide online recordings of the classes and spend 1/3rd of the time at university.

[polishdude20]

I feel like the misery of online education comes from the lack of consistency. One professor may drone on and on for a few hours during the lecture and have no "showmanship". Another may refuse to put his lectures online and demands that you he there at 8:30 am to watch the lecture live and only live. Some professors just refuse to change with the times. Too many educators want to try and fit an in-person education style into an online format. That's the wrong way to go about it.

[sdevonoes]

I kind of agree. Among all the professors I had when I did my bachelor, perhaps one or two were worth listening to in person (because you could interrupt them and ask questions if needed. They really knew their subjects and were good communicators). All the knowledge the other professors were broadcasting was vastly inferior in comparision to reading the top two books (from cover to cover) for their given lecture.

[godot]

I went to a University of California some 15-20 years ago for undergrad and none of your 4 points are true in my experience.

> Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind.

It's not an awful experience, in fact, you can often ask questions during or after lectures. It also has the benefit of being similar to the stage of life you just came from (high school, for most students), so you're not switching to a different mode of learning.

> For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by point and if you do not understand something, tough luck, the professor has already moved to the next exercise.

All labs sessions I've had always had a TA present. I've gotten countless help from the TAs during lab sessions. The only times they're not there is if you start early or stay late and they've left. TAs also lead discussion sections. In general they are a huge help and it's their job to help students because a professor can't always be there.

> The worst part is that you have to spend 6-8 hours a day, 5 days a week like this and then you still need to find online materials to actually learn the thing. Some people have to work too.

This is simply false. I was a full time student and took a full 15+ units per quarter (which is more than average) and it was barely 2-3 hours of lecture a day on average over 5 days, plus ~1 hour of discussion section per day on average. Most of the rest of time is intended to be for homeworks, studying, lab sessions, etc.

Maybe I'm too old and times were different, but we've never had to find online materials to accompany anything we learned over classes, in all of my classes (computer science or others). Everything we needed was included in textbooks, notes from the professor, or discussed in lectures/classes. Also, I know I might be of the minority opinion here, but I actually did find much of the knowledge from computer science classes helpful for future work (been a software engineer for 15 yerars now).

> Did I mention 2 hours of commute time every day?

I don't know what it's like outside the US, but in the US it's common for students graduating high school and going to college to leave their hometown and rent an apartment in their new college town. Commutes are typically under 15 minutes by bike/walk/bus in my college town. You could live literally in any part of that (small) city and be within 15 minutes from campus one way or another.

[twoslide]

It's not really about the most efficient, easily consumable delivery of information from point A to B. Students are really "consuming" a bundle of knowledge, skills, experiences, credentials, reptutation and social networks. There's not much incentive to move online (Prof at a UK university)

[watwut]

> Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option.

Purely online courses have large failure rates - even when students pay and are comparable to in person ones. For whatever reason, people do better in person course and do badly in online ones.

[ska]

For what it's worth, your experience is not universal.