[MartianSquirrel]

Disclaimer: Clearly biased, I am from Montreal.

> That’s part of why I think that if any city in Canada has the potential to actually develop a Bay Area grade startup scene (smaller, sure, but actually the real thing), it’s clearly Montreal

I would have to agree with the conclusion of this article, Montreal has:

(i) 5 universities very close to each other(i.e. 10 to 20 minutes walk from each other) + Great public transport

(ii) Lots of government subsidies for startups, on municipal, provincial and federal levels

(iii) Small tech companies and startups can afford rent downtown (or in the mile-end), where other tech companies and universities are located. (I also have a 1200sf apt downtown for 1/6th the price of SF)

(iiii) It's an amazing market where to fail quickly. Quebec is some sort of small scale self-sufficient society where you can experiment before scaling. And outsiders tend not to look at failures in the Quebec startup scene

(iiiii) It's surprisingly easy to get funding from the massive government investment funds(IQ, CDPQ, BDC), and they have been focusing more on the startup scene lately.

(iiiiii) The french Canadian "culture" tends to be bolder and more dynamic than what you would expect in the rest of Canada. Can't hurt the ecosystem if you're expected to move fast and fail quick

(iiiiiii) Move to MTL already, we want more startups!

[jariel]

Those are all inputs, which are nice, but the outputs which we care about, are negligible.

Where are the exceptional companies employing a lot of people, doing 'important' or 'impactfull' things? Or the exits? Or even externalized value creation?

Edit: I will give an interesting answer to my own equation and that is Element AI. A ridiculous concept from a startup perspective, but very rational regional investment argument: round up the AI talent and give them something to do. In the end, they couldn't make money - but - they didn't lose money and they may have secured at least a foundational location for AI researchers to be employed in montreal, which is not nothing. It remains to be seen if it can be expanded, and if all those AI researchers will just end up moving to the US for more money.

It's a little bit like the 'Boston Dynamics' of Montreal - clearly something going on, but difficult to commercialize so it needs a massive company to see the strategic benefit. I feel the staff of Boston Dynamics will stay put though - they're not moving to Korea (i.e. new Hyundai owners) .

[MattGaiser]

What did you not like about Element AI's model? I have no idea what it was really, I am just curious.

[jariel]

Element was a group of ex-consultants and a bunch of AI researchers with no market, no product plan.

They were going to do some 'consulting' type work, and then ostensibly use the results of that to come up with product offers.

The obvious fallibility in that is:

1) The companies they are working with will not give up their data and allow them to be used in Element Products. No way. In some cases, maybe for a fee, but in most cases it's not even viable.

2) Making viable products is really hard. You don't 'start with AI and then pick a field'. You need to understand the industry, the channels, develop relationships, develop a brand etc. and have something that's really hot.

Element eventually launched a handful of bland, generic off-the-shelf style AI products for image recognition and a few other things, each one a little bit interesting but ironically none of them worthy of really being a startup on their own.

3) Consultants and Researchers are not Startup types. Of course they can be, but not by default. Definitely some ex-Phds and ex-consultants could launch a great company, but otherwise hiring a bunch of them for big salaries and putting them in a room is not how startups form.

They work really hard, they are really smart, but they're not generally very good at finding seams and opening new markets.

4) Generally the way it's done is 'start small' and when there is 'product market fit' you scale. So Element didn't fit that model. They took on $100's of millions before any kind of product-market-fit and ran around in circles burning it.

It would have been nicer to start with a team of 10, find resonance, then start to pull in the talent.

But in some situations, raising $150M with government and institutional backers is easier than raising from traditional VC directly. Like a big government backed initiative with all the flair, PR, announcements.

The CEO of Element was literally on a public Zoom with the PM of Canada recently.

That kind of company.

[otoburb]

>>But in some situations, raising $150M with government and institutional backers is easier than raising from traditional VC directly. Like a big government backed initiative with all the flair, PR, announcements.

The >$150M raised, a good chunk sourced by the provincial government, is in a sense more "precious" because there's so little Canadian venture capital with low(er) risk tolerances floating around, resulting in yet further tightening of Canadian VC capital. The problem compounds itself.

[jariel]

The money came from Desjardins etc. because of the 'strategic' and 'nationalist' aspect of the investment.

No VC - even American one's were going to invest in that kind of boondoggle up front at those valuations.

So you're right when you say 'there isn't enough money' - at the same time, that's not the problem specifically here, and, frankly, good companies will get the money.

There are big funds in Canada.

[MartianSquirrel]

It was indeed a weird model, I think the tech scene here always looked at eAI like some type of outcast, leaving them alone.

But it drew attention to the AI scene, universities received massive funding in AI which is fantastic, startups grew around it, VCs started investing more in MTL(not only because of them, but it did play a role), FAANGS expanded their offices and openned AI labs downtown and in the mile-end.

I was not a fan, but the publicity they received has definetly been good for the scene.

[ramraj07]

Is there any bias against non french speaking people though? Spent a year doing my masters and that's what I came away from there with. If experiences of non-francophile immigrants in spinning startups and getting funding is good then that'll be good to know.

[freeone3000]

If you're not able to speak French, personal bias is a secondary concern. Speaking French in the workplace is legally required. Non-French-speaking immigrants will likely be able to get by in their personal lives with English in Montreal, depending on what you want to do, but if you're selling a product, the product must be available in French. Not complying with these regulations will incur fines from the OQLF.

[gdsdfe]

"Speaking French in the workplace is legally required" I don't think that's true, this is a big misconception. Unless you're working in a shop or something where you interact with clients directly you don't have to speak French. I work for a multinationale that have over 1000 employees in Montréal and everybody speaks English internally same fory previous job a small company of 40ish people

[freeone3000]

English isn't disallowed, but broadcast emails must be also in French, as well as posters, and HR materials, and so on. The OQLF was on our case about a copier that was English-only during our last inspection.

[gdsdfe]

yeah I hear you and while I totally disagree with OQLF practices in the grand scheme of things I don't think it's a big deal, especially for a tech companies ... most of the posters/HR stuff is probably done by bilingual people anyways. The real shortage/competition is for engineers.

[novok]

Selling something in french too isn't the problem, it's how the language of the startup needs to be in french that limits the market significantly. This law is why the center of business moved from montreal to toronto in Canada.

[MartianSquirrel]

It is not legally required, strongly advised by the government. It would go against Section 2 of the Canadian constituion to discriminate on a language basis.

The OQLF asks for companies to use french terminology and tools where possible (the tech sector blatantly ignores it, I've always worked in english, even with french co-workers) and to offer a french translation on signs, menus and documentations in stores.

[freeone3000]

Quebec has a history of using the notwithstanding clause to push through numerous things supposedly prohibited by clause 2. You will absolutely be fined for not having employment documents available in French, or signage with French co-equal. Tech companies usually put in place a do-nothing "francisation plan" and pay any levied fines, but it's a real cost of doing business.

[MartianSquirrel]

Not anymore, not in tech at least. Every single company is looking to hire, they don't have the luxury of cherry picking over languages.

The provincial government can be a pain in the ass sometimes, but they tend not to mess with startups or the tech sector.

My partner is running an interior design business, she is an immigrant, does not have her citizenship/PR yet, with a mediocre french and never really had problems with discrimination or legislation. All she had to do was to make sure every written signs had a french translation somewhere on them, which is common here

[MartianSquirrel]

Bonus: there are 56 craft breweries on the island alone

[gdsdfe]

Yep craft beer scene is fantastic!

[HDMI_Cable]

I love Montreal too, but being legally required to speak French drives away a lot of people who would normally come live here. Anecdotally, I know quite a few people who chose Vancouver and Edmonton over Montreal, partly because they were afraid of the language / culture surrounding the language.

[MartianSquirrel]

You are right, the legislation on that part is counterproductive, but there are many ways around, especially for tech workers.

And tbh we alway used english at work considering some of our team mates didn't speak french.

[rchaud]

Vanc over Montreal is understandable for weather reasons alone, but Edmonton??

[raverbashing]

Personal experience: the part you're missing is that Quebec looks down on anyone that's not from QC, maybe from the ROC, maybe from the US and maaaybe if they're from France (et oui, je suis francophone)

For each job offer I had from QC I had 3 or 4 from Toronto (which had other problems as well to be fair)

Also, Canadian startup environment is... weird? A lot of business models were castles in the air to be honest.

> 5 universities very close to each other(i.e. 10 to 20 minutes walk from each other)

Except, you know, for that minor hill between them... ;)

[MartianSquirrel]

Shush! Don't tell them about the little hill! It's only one of them on the other side anyways, we can ignore it... here we go, MTL only has 4 universities now /s

Quebec is weird, true, but I tend to think of the Montreal Metropolitan Area as some sort of semi independant micro state

[raydev]

It's tough to get solid info, but aren't tech salaries in MTL like 70% of Toronto's?

[MartianSquirrel]

I cannot say for sure. My personal income is the same I would get in Toronto, but it's anecdotal. I know they are slightly lower on average, but when you factor in the cost of living (rent is 2x higher in TO) it is probably very similar. On the other side, I would say the quality of life is much better in MTL, as the public transportation is better, people do not live as far and are closer to the various activities, etc.

[rchaud]

Rent in Montreal is much lower than Toronto, especially for units over 700 sqft. Toronto apartments can be affordable if you're OK with a 400-500sqft shoebox, but prices rapidly go up from there.