[CodeGlitch]

The problem arises especially when the document is written in legalese. I also feel like I'm not really qualified to understand these documents - they are generally written for people who have the appropriate qualifications.

For example when buying a property in the UK, the soliciter will be the one parses the legal documents. It's crazy to think that normal people are expected to fully understand these, and it doesn't surpise me when they just blindly sign them. At the end of the day they want the thing and carry on with their lives - throwing caution to the wind.

[mech422]

I feel this is one of the major problems with most TOSs...

You generally don't have a lawyer around to explain every TOS you come across, so people ignore them and hope for the best.

Hmm - I wonder if there would be a niche for a website that explains specific, common TOSs in easy to understand terms?

[CodeGlitch]

We've all been hearing about machine learning algorithms that can parse legalese and pull out the important bits given parameters of interest. So certainly a possibility.

HN make it so!

[mech422]

Does that mean we'll sprout a generation of "Legal SEO" lawyers that try to game the algorithms ? :-P

[lcall]

https://tosdr.org/en/frontpage

https://www.thewindowsclub.com/summary-of-terms-and-conditio...

And elsewhere in this discussion is a list of prior such discussions that might mention others (you could Ctrl+F for my username here to find it, I replied to the list).

[lcall]

Also possibly of interest, though I haven't even read their site carefully: https://stonecutters.law/

They say "Stonecutters publishes legal forms and clauses for other legal craftsmen to incorporate by reference."

[asdfasgasdgasdg]

Tbh I don't find tos very hard to understand. They are akin to programming for the law. And generally speaking they just tell you what you should already know about the terms under which you use the service, so that you can't sue the service for absurd things.

For the sake of demonstration, I just went and read the first seven sections of Personal Capital's TOU. Not a single surprise in there, so far. To give one example, section 5 just says that for the sake of displaying the information you are agreeing that personal capital can retrieve on your behalf, personal capital has your authorization to act legally on your behalf. This is to prevent some idiot from suing them for fetching account info that said idiot inputted into personal capital. Another section says, hey, we aren't responsible for mistakes you make with your investments, even if you base your decisions on the information we show to you. Which is a perfectly reasonable thing as well -- you literally could not run a service like this otherwise.

[throwaway2048]

Reminds me of a recent change in the privacy policy of my bank, it spends pages and pages talking about "getting my consent to use my private information" in all sorts of contexts strongly implying they will ask me before selling off my information, then later, in a different part it defines my "usage of the service" as consent for them to use said info.

[joekrill]

Well that's when you get a lawyer to review it for you. I realize there is a cost involved here, but when you're talking about something like this it's usually well worth it - if only to know exactly what you are agreeing to.

[Aeolun]

> throwing caution to the wind

If people were regularly burned by these legal documents then maybe, but I expect that literally nobody or their friends ever had any issues, so most people will accept that that applies for them too.

[de_nied]

That's why documents written in legalese always define the words used before they start using them. At least in the U.S.

[pjmlp]

In Germany it is even considered another language, kind of.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verwaltungssprache

Which kind of translates into Officialese as per Wikipedia.

Defining words is not enough, the grammar and sentence formulation are also very convoluted in regards to the common language.

[de_nied]

Simply from my own experience in dealing with U.S. legal documents, specifically U.S. law, it is usually enough to Google the terms and understand the meaning. If the phrasing is convoluted to the point of needing Academics explain it, then it's usually defined by a court ruling on its meaning.

Terms of service is generally easier to read because it's more simplified and typically doesn't use Latin or existing legal language that is uncommon to the layperson.

Of course, this is still in the context of U.S. law and the English/Latin language.

[pjmlp]

Unfortunately it isn't that simple, that only works for very basic documents, imagine a 50 A4 page contract written that way.

[de_nied]

Can you provide me with an example?

[pjmlp]

A car sales, or a house rental contract.

Both can be around 20 - 50 pages long, all of it written in such language.