[arcticbull]

It's not. Both sides want money. Currently, a small minority of authoritarians (management is authoritarian by nature - and that's okay) get to decide how much of the company profit is shared with employees. Now, employees get to decide alongside them. This reduces the power differential between the groups. Now they can decide what fair is on a more level playing field.

This is simply about improving the power differential between management and labor. If that means more money, so be it. It may well not. It might be more about working conditions or projects.

I guess my question to you is why do you demand democracy in government, but accept authoritarianism at work no questions asked?

[parasubvert]

Fewer people seem to be demanding democracy in government. ;)

I am not OP, but I’d say the reason authority is acceptable in a managed organization (not necessarily for profit - any managed organization whether the military, or NGO, or business, or charity) is because it ultimately has a narrow function: either fulfilling a mission, or increasing the wealth producing capacity of the organization.

Democracy at that granularity is somewhat irrelevant: either you’re doing the things (objectively measured), or you are not. Voting doesn’t lead to better policy decisions, just freer ones.

Of course the best performing companies aren’t managed in an “authoritarian” manner in the usual sense of strongman rule, because one person (or even a small group) doesn’t have all the answers. Labor/management collaboration and recognition of the importance of human capital is essential. This is why management doesn’t have as much power as it used to in modern industry: it is dependent on human capital retention in its labor force, which is very expensive to replace (far more than just skilled labor).

Collective bargaining becomes less about power disparity (when labor can make as much money elsewhere and management needs labor more) and more about pressure on systematic policies that are difficult to change without sustained external pressure: pay disparity, bonuses to sexual harassers, etc.)

At the bigger picture, life is a lot bigger than missions or profit, and democracy is essential. (Unless one’s mission is to own the libs, then I guess democracy isn’t so important)

[throwaway3699]

Not really - it's basically two sets of authoritarians deciding.

For example, if we take this to it's logical conclusion and look a work culture where your co-workers decide how much you get paid, go look at Valve and see how that works out for them: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2013/07/wireduk-v...

There's really no great solution to this problem as everyone wants more money. Either it's workers vs. management or workers vs. each other.

[antisoeu]

As for democracy - because companies are somebody's property. Do you demand democracy in your home? That is, can I decide on a new wall color in your kitchen? I vote for you to paint your kitchen pink, how about that?

Employees can also vote with their feet, if they don't like their bosses, they can leave.

[arcticbull]

> Employees can also vote with their feet, if they don't like their bosses, they can leave.

That's an absurd take because your boss suffers no consequences and you do.

It's not about fair, it's about exercising the power you have.

Besides, each part of the country is someone's property, but government gives you a say anyways. I would counter that the equivalent would be saying "why should anyone vote? why bother changing things? if you don't like your country why don't you go find a different one." We don't tend to accept that argument in government, why accept it in private enterprise?

[antisoeu]

If your boss suffers no consequences if you leave, then your job is superfluous and you should leave, or your boss should be allowed to fire you.

Exercising one's power - sure, employees can do that, and I support that. I just don't think they should deserve special protections and rights for doing that.

If I had an employee and they would tell me "I think your management is shit and I want to make the rules now", I would like to be allowed to fire them.

[arcticbull]

I didn't say they shouldn't be allowed to fire me, I didn't mean to imply that they would suffer no consequences however the consequences of 100% of my income is way smaller than whatever tiny fraction I make up of a 50,000 person company.

Did you consider your management may be shit and maybe the person should make the rules now, not you? If you were harassing them, for instance, or bullying them, they may have a point and your single point of control over the enterprise may be harmful not just to the worker but to the company.

Just because you would like to fire them doesn't mean you should, as after all, the fiduciary duty is to the company and not to you personally.

That is specifically the value that the union would provide in this case.

[antisoeu]

Sure, management can be shit, but then the company should simply go to ruins. Likewise, employee decisions can be bad, too. It's mostly magical thinking to assume with unionized employees there will be better decision making.

If I had a company, I would like to have the right to make bad decisions. And who defines good and bad decisions.

With unions, in the end you have courts decide on economic decisions. That's bullshit.

[Apocryphon]

Employee decisions aren't necessarily right, but who's to say that management should deserve unilateral power to make their decisions with maybe the board reining it in. And in tech specifically, we've been seeing more companies where the founders/existing leadership retains enough of a share that they can ignore the board, never mind their employees.

Unilateral control over a business's destiny can doom it if the leadership is making poor decisions even when the rank-and-file oppose them. It's all easy to say the company should simply go to ruins but why should it? What if the good or service is solid, should the customers and the market suffer because the failing company has deprived them of it? Should the workers be punished because they had insufficient leverage to oppose those decisions? Should a ton of money and effort be wasted for an apparently pointless enterprise? If we live in a society that seeks to maximize life expectancy, and if corporations are people, why should we not seek also to prevent avoidable business failures, at least for those enterprises that are building useful products?

[arcticbull]

Fiduciary duty is to the business not to the leadership, and to replace bad management. An employee-backed check bolsters this fiduciary duty.

> If I had a company, I would like to have the right to make bad decisions. And who defines good and bad decisions.

Feel free to do that in a company of 1. As soon as your company exceeds 1 person, you lose the absolute right. You lose the right when your decisions impact the livelihood of those around you. It doesn't drop to zero instantly but it is attenuated as the company grows.

[silverlake]

Governments take a % of my income. Democracy gives me a voice in how that pool of stolen money is spent. Businesses are private property owned by the shareholders. They can run their biz anyway they see fit, within community standards. I.e. no slavery or child labor, reduced pollution, contracts are binding, etc.

Unions are to protect the interests of employees that have no bargaining power. Big tech employees don’t need this. I can, however, see tech employees using their shares and influence to bargain for a board seat. I think Germany does this.

Ultimately it comes down to the relationship white-collar employees have with their employer. I work at a Big Tech co. I see myself as a hired-gun who is full-time because the taxes and benefits are easier to manage. I don’t care one bit about the company’s mission or values or whatever. I write code, they give me money. Either one of us can dissolve this contract anytime.

[kortilla]

> I guess my question to you is why do you demand democracy in government, but accept authoritarianism at work no questions asked?

Because employment is a freely associated business relationship. I don’t demand democracy in my business relationship with in-n-out when I order a burger nor do I demand democracy when a company pays me for some software development.

I do demand democracy from a government that makes laws I cannot opt out of and controls the courts which enforce all disputes in my life.

Even the largest companies in the world can be avoided by someone who doesn’t want to do business with them. The same is not true of the government.

[Apocryphon]

But employment is still an asymmetrical relationship where employees are submitting themselves to the authority of employers. And if you're putting yourself in a situation where you're under another's authority, wouldn't you want to maximize your own autonomy underneath it, via democracy? Even in "freely associated business relationship" you seek the power to negotiate and maintain your own preferences. In-n-Out has a customizable menu. Contractors negotiate their contracts for flexible terms.

> Even the largest companies in the world can be avoided by someone who doesn’t want to do business with them. The same is not true of the government.

There's still the right of exit, as the libertarians call it. One can switch citizenships, or choose to relocate themselves to the few remaining frontiers where governance is minimal. Changing one's residence can be very difficult, but how is changing employment any less so?

[kortilla]

> In-n-Out has a customizable menu. Contractors negotiate their contracts for flexible terms.

I have no say in what’s on their menu. Contractors negotiate but I can’t force them to do anything with a vote like I can in a democracy.

> One can switch citizenships, or choose to relocate themselves to the few remaining frontiers where governance is minimal.

Not without moving and significant impact to life. In all but company towns (which are basically non existent now), it’s trivial to not have any meaningful relationship with a particular business.

[antisoeu]

"authoritarians" - is that what they call entrepreneurs these days?

Personally I think the category "employee" should be forbidden. It is a pure social construct. Why is anybody entitled to be an "employee" and bitch about "authoritarians"?

Everybody is an entrepreneur. If you have nothing, you sell your body and work hours. But that's just a contract like every other contract.

In any case, if those workers don't like the authoritarians, they are free to start their own companies. Then they get to call the shots.

[arcticbull]

> "authoritarians" - is that what they call entrepreneurs these days?

Yup, and I don't think it's a bad thing, necessarily.

Of course they're authoritarians, you do what your boss says or you get out. That's authoritarianism. That doesn't mean it's wrong or bad or ill suited to the task, necessarily.

Singapore is authoritarian, and I'd say things are working pretty well there.

[danans]

> Personally I think the category "employee" should be forbidden. It is a pure social construct.

Don't know where you are, but in the US, the category of employee has different tax implications for both the individual and the employer. In addition, depending on the industry and role, employee status is often correlated with significantly better benefits.

[antisoeu]

It's still a social construct - all the laws, even nations, are social constructs. I'm saying there should be no special benefits for employees.

[danans]

> It's still a social construct - all the laws, even nations, are social constructs.

So? Social constructs have a lot of teeth in the real world, and always have. Wishing them away won't have any effect.

> I'm saying there should be no special benefits for employees

So are you arguing that those benefits (i.e. health insurance) should be universal? Or are you making the argument that only those in a position to pay should have access to those things?

[antisoeu]

"Wishing them away won't have any effect."

Laws and social constructs can be changed.

As for health insurance (as an example), how do you justify giving health insurance to employees, but not to other people, like self-employed people?

[arcticbull]

I don't which is why I support socialized single-payer medicine.

However, to address your question more directly, contractors are employees as well. It's not the job site's responsibility to provide health insurance, it's their employers. Contractors still have employers, you know.

[arcticbull]

And I'm saying there should be no special benefits to management :)

[antisoeu]

There aren't any.

[arcticbull]

Can managers not fire people?

[minimuffins]

> Everybody is an entrepreneur. If you have nothing, you sell your body and work hours. But that's just a contract like every other contract.

This is a fake world. In the real world there is history, capital and labor, and politics which is an expression of the unavoidable, built-in antagonism between the two. We don't all own an equal share of the means of production and just sit around issuing contracts to each other all day.

Do you understand that the econ 101 libertarian world of homo economicus rational agents is fake and we live instead in the real world with its institutions and conflicts?

[antisoeu]

Capital and labor is a fake distinction. Your body/capability to work is capital.

[minimuffins]

Your body/capability to work is labor.

Property that you can use to produce value beyond itself through workers' labor is capital.

[antisoeu]

Again, it is a fake distinction.

Suppose you had a robot. Would that robot be labor or capital? Assume the robot has the same capability for work as you.

At the end of the day it is a machine, so "capital". Likewise you own your body, it is your capital.

[minimuffins]

Great news! I can't wait to hire workers to start using my body to produce valuable commodities which I can then sell for a profit!

[Simulacra]

I think you misunderstand the power of a union at Google. If management says no, what are they going to do? Strike? I mean ..hundreds of them, will have zero effect. This Union is nothing more than a paper dragon. Democracy works in government but in a company that you don’t own, why do you think you deserve to make any of the decisions? As Obama said “you didn’t build that” and yet you want to feed at the trough.

[arcticbull]

It's not about deserve, it's about exercising the power your actually have. Management doesn't do any of the typing. I stop typing they're gonna have to replace me. I guess my retort would be why shouldn't I exercise the power I have? It's not about fair, it's about boots on the ground.

Replacing your workforce is much harder than you make it out to be. All the institutional knowledge, the entire stack, how things fit together, how the tools are built, run, used. All that leaves with you.

You are likely right that this union, at this juncture doesn't have much say. I'm speaking more about unions in general, and this does feel like the thin edge.

IMO this isn't the highest value proposition place to unionize, that would be video games.

[minimuffins]

> why shouldn't I exercise the power I have?

Absolutely correct.

This is an IS/OUGHT distinction. Who cares what labor "should" do under the employer's ideology. Not too surprising they want us to think of ourselves as equal players making fair contracts with each other, while one side holds the entire world in their hands.

Since we're not out in the streets starving we're supposed to shut up and be thankful, no matter what, because the ruling ideology says they've given us enough (money as a wage, though little other power). All the crying about "contracts," "greed," "entitlement," etc is just pure ideological smokescreen trying to get you not to notice the obvious, fundamental conflict between worker and owner. They want us to look at a long running historic power struggle and see something other than a power struggle so we won't fight for ourselves. Ridiculous.

[vladTheInhaler]

Why do you think you deserve to make any decisions? What makes you special? Absolutely nothing. But in a million tiny ways, you still try to have your say in the world, as much as you can. Even this comment is an attempt to spread your ideas to others, and make the world reflect your thinking just a little bit more. And that's perfectly natural. But don't be surprised when others do the same.