[skohan]

I spent part of my career working in the US, and now I work in Germany, and I can say the labor laws make a huge difference. Some would say this type of law hampers innovation, but at some level if there is not a basic fair playing field set for everyone, there will always be the incentive for some to over-work to get ahead.

[theshrike79]

There is a limit to creative work. Quality will suffer if you work 12 hours a day 7 days a week.

It's better to do the 7.5 hours, go home and come back rested the next day. Your subconscious will be working on the problem anyway.

Most European countries seem to be over the glorification of long grueling hours. In the US and Japan it's still a badge of honor how much you work - never mind that productivity in either country isn't scaling relative to the hours used.

[bvcvbuiy]

When I see someone working long hours I always think that either this person must be very disorganised or should move to a less exploitative company. I don't see it as honorific at all (I live in the UK).

[machinelabo]

I personally know people that work very hard 12 hours a day and their output is stellar. Not only are they creative, but they build some of the most amazing systems I've ever come across in record time. They're handsomely paid with equity and monetary compensation.

I work in a startup with 45 top notch engineers.

[theshrike79]

Yes, I worked 12 hours a day with stellar output too.

Then one night I found out could't sleep. At all. Had to take a few pills just to get some shuteye and woke up with a shitty metal taste in my mouth every morning.

I started getting heart palpitations at odd times. Was on SSRI for a few years just to get over the burnout. Acid reflux so bad I could only eat unseasoned chicken and white rice for 6 months.

Since that episode I've learned moderation and have had a hard 8h/day policy with rare exceptions. No issues since, and my output hasn't really changed.

[skohan]

Two questions would be: 1) do they actually work 12 hours a day, or have they found a way to appear to do so? and 2) how long have they done this for? When I was at my first startup, I had periods of 16 hour days, but after a few years of this I would not go back.

[theshrike79]

Exactly.

There's a huge difference between being at work 12 hours a day and actually doing something productive with that time.

Japan is an excellent example of this, in their office culture you never leave before the boss does and try to be at the office before them. People spend 12+ hours at work and don't produce more than other people who work sensible hours.

Coronavirus and remote works might be a savior for that culture.

[machinelabo]

I wondered the same but their work output is evident. I can see the commit history and their responsiveness to issues.

Not saying anything about whether this is a good idea or not. Just saying that I know people like this that I used to be skeptical about before.

[mewpmewp2]

I'm afraid this type of law will decrease salaries in Europe compared to US.

For instance I work at an international company and I already get paid 2-3x less than same level engineers in US. I feel like this would increase the gap even more.

And I'd prefer to have the option to over-achieve if this is what I choose to do with my life.

[skohan]

Have you considered moving to the US?

But honestly the pay gap is not due to labour laws, at least not directly. It's because there's a war between the big tech firms to acquire talent which doesn't exist the same way in Europe.

[mewpmewp2]

I have actually seriously considered it, and this international company is one of the reasons why I joined it because of the opportunity to relocate. US also has much better opportunities for entrepreneurship and other things in my opinion. Simply due to scale of English speaking crowd and of course people there are more likely to buy things.

But it would require coming out of my comfort zone so much. I have a girlfriend here, family, friends and much more.

I have calculated that I could "FIRE" in US so much faster compared to where I live. Especially if I did some years of work in USA and then "FIRE"d at some low cost of living country.

But I think I'm not going to do it for now. Luckily the company pays well in my country too, just not as well. But I do have a lot of regrets that I'm not using my potential to the fullest.

Why do you think US has so many big tech firms compared to Europe and other places? And why is there so much war between tech companies specifically in US?

[theshrike79]

> Why do you think US has so many big tech firms compared to Europe and other places? And why is there so much war between tech companies specifically in US?

Less regulation. Facebook would've hit multiple EU privacy laws before it got even medium-sized.

Uber, Doordash and others would've never gotten past EU labor laws. They're having trouble even now.

And yes, the US has a huge concentration of enthusiastic talent willing to do pretty much anything as long as it's "disruptive". Also the US has ridiculous amounts of people wit millions to waste on said disruptive ideas. (Like over-engineered juice presses).

[skohan]

> Why do you think US has so many big tech firms compared to Europe and other places? And why is there so much war between tech companies specifically in US?

Historical/incidental reasons I suppose. I think a lot of it has to do with a lot of the big tech giants, and a lot of VC being centered there (especially around SV specifically) so there is a lot of defensive hiring. When facebook pays a developer $250k per year, it's not only because of the value they're providing facebook, but it's because of the value they could provide a startup which could compete with facebook. By driving up the price of talent, they price startups out of the market.

Startups in Europe have much less access to VC funding, so they are less of a threat.

[908B64B197]

It's no accident.

- World class universities

- Weak/non-existent non-compete

- Better risk tolerance from VC (Can't just park the money in real-estate. Worth it to invest in the Next Big Thing)

- Higher compensation means the best world-wide come work in that ecosystem

[GekkePrutser]

I definitely get 3-4x less than US in the EU country where I live.

But who cares.. I like the low-pressure life here. Rents are lower than the US too. We have socialised healthcare, safe gun-free cities. That's worth a lot more than a number on a bank statement.

I hear that in the US people will lose their healthcare when they lose a job and it could cost $1000 a month (which is more than my monthly rent)! Here it's simply free. That brings a lot of peace of mind.

[rayiner]

> I hear that in the US people will lose their healthcare when they lose a job and it could cost $1000 a month (which is more than my monthly rent)! Here it's simply free. That brings a lot of peace of mind.

That's not true in most of the states where people actually live. For example where I live in Maryland: https://www.marylandhealthconnection.gov/lost-your-job-you-c...

> Yes, you have 60 days from the date of losing your job to enroll in health coverage through Maryland Health Connection. You do not have to wait for open enrollment. A special enrollment period allows you to enroll in a health plan

Eligibility for free or subsidized healthcare depends on income. Here are the income limits in Maryland: https://www.marylandhealthconnection.gov/how-to-enroll/medic.... For a family of 4, if you earn less than about $36,000 a year you qualify for Medicaid, which provides free healthcare, including prescription drugs. For a family of four, you can enroll your kids in Medicaid if your family makes under $55,000 per year.

Above that it's a sliding scale based on household income.

[dragonwriter]

> a family of 4, if you earn less than about $36,000 a year you qualify for Medicaid, which provides free healthcare, including prescription drugs.

It provides free health insurance; as Maryland Medicaid has cost-sharing requirements, it is not completely free health care. Prescription drugs, in particular, are not free for Medicaid recipients, though they are subsidized ($1-$3/prescription).

https://www.kff.org/health-reform/state-indicator/premium-an...

[rayiner]

Finland, the example used by the poster I was responding to, doesn’t have “completely free health care” either. Prescription drugs have a 50 euro deductible and 40-100% reimbursement rates depending on the situation: https://www.medaffcon.fi/en/market-access-finland/

[CommanderData]

Health insurance is not the same as universally free health care at the point of service / request for every citizen.

[rayiner]

Most countries with “universal healthcare” actually have some sort of “universal health insurance.” And it’s usually not free at the point of service. Finland for example has a user fees and co-pays at the point of service.

[jahaja]

I think it's pretty relevant to post how large these Finnish fees and co-pays are compared to the US? It comes across as pretty dishonest to omit that the fee is almost symbolic in comparison. In Sweden it's like 200SEK (~$20) per visit and it seems to be 20 euro in Finland. And both fees have a cap for people needing a lot of care.

[dragonwriter]

> I hear that in the US people will lose their healthcare when they lose a job and it could cost $1000 a month (which is more than my monthly rent)!

This is true with some caveats:

If you lose your job, you lose health insurance from the job by default. But in general you have a choice to buy the same plan you had, at the full cost (including whatever the employer used to pay), which can, yes, be $1000/mo — or significantly more.

However, you will usually also then have the option of buying a plan from your state’s healthcare exchange, which may not be as good as your employer plan, but the lowest cost options will come consistently be far less than $1K/mo. [0]

And depending on income and other factors, you may be eligible for subsidies to pay part or all of the cost of an exchange plan, or you may be eligible for public insurance via Medicaid.

[0] https://www.kff.org/health-reform/state-indicator/average-ma...

[brtkdotse]

I’m having a hard time figuring out if you’re trying to paint a rosy or a bleak picture.

[1123581321]

That comment appears to be attempting neither. The healthcare situation in the US is complex and does not fit into any simple narrative without omitting information.

[lallysingh]

If you have a family, it's more like $2500/month for healthcare.

[theshrike79]

And if you have kids, it's like grand per kid for daycare right?

The US tech sector is _perfect_ for a single male engineer, who doesn't have any health issues. You can work 16 hour days, sleep on the office sofa and earn six-seven figures before you're 30.

But as someone who's definitely not 30 any more, with a family and health issues there is no way I'm even considering moving to the US.

I could easily triple or quadruple my take-home pay, but I'd be taking all the safeties off my, and my family's, life. Not a fan.

[rayiner]

> And if you have kids, it's like grand per kid for daycare right?

It depends on your income. Here in Maryland, families of four making up to $70,000/year are eligible for childcare subsidies.

These numbers come from high income people who try to imagine what it would be like to be low income but don’t actually know about all of the programs the US, especially blue coastal states and the Midwest, have for people under a certain income level.

For higher income people like engineers, their employees will pay for their healthcare. Things like daycare can be a stretch, but you only pay that for a few years before the kids are eligible for free per-school. Say you have 2 kids and they need $1,500/month daycare for four years. (That’s more than I pay in Maryland which is a high cost state.) That works out to about $3,600 per year over a career. Two people working will absolutely make that much more in take home pay the US than in Europe.

[theshrike79]

On the other hand, in Finland the cost is around 200-250€ a month per child and the cost goes down with each child currently enrolled.

From ages 0-5 you need to pay for childcare, pre-school starts at 6 and that's free. Pre-school isn't 8 hours a day though, so you need to pay around 100€ to supplement it with childcare.

After that it's school, high-school and university, all free again. High-school & university require you to buy the books though, which do have a cost, but nothing like the US schoolbook prices from what I've gathered. It's hundreds of euros per term if you buy new.

[rayiner]

It depends on how much money you make. Here in Maryland, for a family of four making $70,000 per year, the premium is under $300/month for a high deductible plan, and under $500 for a low deductible plan. Even a family making $100,000 receives federal subsidies: a low-deductible plan is under $800/month, and a high-deductible plan is under $450/month.

We implemented a sweeping healthcare reform a decade ago now. You can't just pretend that never happened.

[GekkePrutser]

Wow, this is literally more than I make after tax :( And I have a senior IT job at a multinational.

But I suppose wages take this into account. High rent prices, healthcare etc. Otherwise people wouldn't be able to live off their wage.

[lallysingh]

Note: almost all of this would be paid by my employer on my behalf. I'd be on the hook for ~$350/month

[freeone3000]

Programmers can. Most people cannot.

[rayiner]

Most people can’t live on their wages? What do they do? You realize that over 90% of US citizens have health insurance right?