Ask HN: Co-workers paid more. What to do?

[adit20]

Hi all,

I am in early 40's. Individual contributor in tech role. Recently I got to know, there is a huge discrepancy in the compensation. A lot of co-workers ( including juniors) are getting paid more than I do. I am not getting promoted too. My performance has been very good. I have always got high ratings. But I never discussed compensation related things with my manager. Only those who make noise are getting rewarded.

I can say, I am financially independent. Even if I get a promotion, it wont make any significant difference to my net worth. But others (many undeserving ones) making more than me hurts me. How do I handle this situation?

[st1x7]

1. Ask for a raise. Your company likely has some kind of review cycle and there are times in the financial year when employees can get a pay review. Make sure that before that moment comes around you've had a conversation about salary with your direct manager and you're on track to get a raise. Since you know other people's salaries, you can ask for specific numbers instead of asking for a raise in the general sense.

2. Don't focus too much on other people when you're having these conversations. Since you're performing well and have never had a compensation review, it's reasonable to just ask for a raise even without the knowledge of other people's salaries. It might be reasonable to say that you're looking for a salary that's in line with what the rest of the team is making (but I certainly wouldn't start with this). Whatever you do, don't discuss other people's deservingness and don't badmouth anyone.

3. Since you're comfortable financially, you always have the option to quit and find another job. For the same reason you might be less likely to quit because of salary. So if you don't get what you want, it really comes down to your personal priorities about what aspects of your job matter to you and no one else can really give you good advice on that.

[adit20]

Thanks a lot for a very detailed response.

1. I was never comfortable discussing it with my manager.

2. Great advice on not bad mouthing others. Will keep it in mind. Actually I dont mind not getting a hike/promo. But underserving ones getting is what I am upset about. My manager is very good and I heard he has been trying his best. But I got to know its the layer above him that plays the spoilsport. Apparently due to the perception. I dont market myself and have always been humble.

3. Till now I never thought about quitting. Now I am contemplating. Somehow I get a feeling that its the same no matter where you go. My other plan is to stay here, but dont work hard. Just do what is asked. But its difficult to implement since I always want to give my best.

[codegeek]

"But underserving ones getting is what I am upset about."

Sorry but that is not your call to make. Don't mix you not getting a raise with someone else getting an undeserved raise. Focus on your issue. You want a raise. That's the issue. Ask for it. Make your case. Be vocal. Be Prompt. Don't badmouth team members. Good luck.

[selfishgene]

Of course it's the OP's call to make. Most companies have a finite set of resources from which they can draw to reward employees, except maybe defense contractors.

If someone is not competent and is hurting the team effort, it is not badmouthing that person to express your concern.

[codegeek]

You can express concern about an underperforming team member but not in the context of a raise. Don't tie your own raise to someone else not performing. That's the point I am making. Ask for what you deserve based on what YOU think you are worth. Otherwise, you are basically saying "The other person who is shitty gets paid more than me. I am less shitty than them. So pay me more".

[bot41]

Your manager is very good for the company but not for you.. he is, in part, responsible for your salary.

[giantg2]

I agree with this. I would just add that if you are bringing up any comparisons in #2, I would have a document from a third party like Glassdoor that states what your specific market rate should be based on your attributes.

[davismwfl]

Something to remember, just because you are financially independent doesn't mean you should allow a company (or anyone) to take advantage of you, although I have seen this pattern fairly often. The company has already shown they are taking advantage of you, and you not speaking up is quiet acceptance of their behavior. People asking for what is correct, just and fair isn't being squeaky, it is respecting that they have a value and expect it to be fairly compensated. Of course there are exceptions when someone is just being a pain in the ass asking for more money every 6 months, that is a squeaky wheel which will eventually reach a point they are forced out as the value to benefit will be too great.

I am in my mid 40's and find that I value companies based on how the treat employees, vendors and customers, generally in that order. If a company does the first two correct (employee's & vendors), the third is almost an absolute given. So for example, if a company doesn't update employee wages to maintain a fair market for the employee then the company is taking advantage of the employee. Startups have some leeway if someone accepts equity in place of salary, but they don't get a free pass to abuse people by paying 30%-50% of market while giving someone 1% or less of diluting equity in trade. So to me, if a company is willing to overlook someone who is executing just because they aren't raising their hand asking for more, it means to me the leadership lacks integrity. If they know someone is paid less than their peers yet produces the same or greater value, they lack integrity.

I do think you need to raise your hand and speak up, then based upon the outcome choose your path by either accepting they maybe made a mistake/there was an unintentional oversight or they lack integrity and you should expect if they do this to you they are doing it in other places. Good people do make mistakes, as long as they admit it and address it is all anyone can ask, but if you don't raise the issue you'll never know if they just screwed up or are just taking advantage of you.

[selfishgene]

We won't know what is "correct, just and fair" until there is a lot more transparency in the system.

All salary info of companies should be made publicly available after a recent study by a major consulting firm in Boston concluded that after looking at all of the different metrics that HR has proposed to evaluate employees, nothing correlated particularly well with level of employee compensation.

Companies that purchase access from credit-reporting agencies like Experian can learn a lot about their employees previous salary history.

All employees have by way of recourse is access to the high NSR data available on spam-filled recruiting websites like Glassdoor.

[adit20]

Thanks a lot for the response. You are right. They have taken me for granted. I will look into it.

[codingdave]

1) Do an ego check - it sounds like you have no problem with your own compensation, you are just ticked that someone else makes more.

2) Start talking about compensation with your manager.

3) Be aware that corporate ratings typically take compensation into account. Making less money and getting high ratings means they like the cost/benefit ratio you give them. Your coworkers who make more but are less skilled probably get worse ratings, and probably will be out the door faster if the company struggles. You will likely join that group if you push for more money. That may still be the right move, but you should be aware of the broader context of such moves.

[adit20]

Thanks for the response.

1) I have always appreciated deserving ones. Undeserving ones making more is what pains me.

2) Responded to a similar question in the other reply

3) Great point. I was thinking on similar lines. But to my surprise, nothing happens to them. They somehow survive. I noticed that, during layoff only lesser mortals get impacted. (Either very low profile or very poor performers)

[giantg2]

"Undeserving ones making more is what pains me."

I know what you mean. Good companies should want to correct this. If they don't, then they end up with people like me - I used to be a high performer, but why should I bother if the company has screwed me over and passed me over several times while people who joined after me with a similar ability are at least one level ahead of me.

[bot41]

What is your first point meant to mean? Why should OP get paid less?

[codingdave]

I did not mean that OP deserves any less - that comment was made in the context of OPs statement that they are financially independent and a raise would have no impact on their wealth.

In such a scenario, it does not seem to harm them for others to make more. So their frustration with the situation may be ego-driven. And while that is understandable, it is also worth taking time to really think about that and decide if this is a battle worth fighting. It may be... but that is up to OP to decide.

[runawaybottle]

Look, if you rely on a company for compensation growth (or any type of growth), you will basically walk away disenfranchised. The only solution is the market, it is available to people in our industry readily (which isn’t the case in many other industries).

Don’t overthink this, if the market cannot get you what you believe you are worth, then you simply are not worth that (yet). Going to your current company and asking for justice is pretty much a fools errand.

Don’t even think about asking for a raise or new position unless you validated your assumption on the open market first (a job offer with your desired role and salary).

As for being hurt, try to understand that companies are usually passive aggressive. This is what they understand. They won’t understand you getting riled up and explaining your feelings and leaving. What they will understand is, well, passive aggressiveness. Hunt for another job and just quietly leave, they’ll get it. Sadly, there are no winners in this game, but who cares - it’s not like you’re winning now right? A solid quiet fuck you is the only shred of justice you can get for yourself, and that’s the most you can ask for.

Lastly, infer intention. You are quietly being told something. Sounds like you are getting the message. Don’t make a ruckus and fuck off is the gist.

[speedgoose]

If it's bothering you, the simple solution is to get a raise. If it's refused, you can start to look for another job.

[runawaybottle]

I agree with the simple solution, but reverse the order of actions. You must get the other job first and then ask for the raise. Otherwise you have zero leverage.

[estrabrook]

You proved your values, then should have priced it as well. Some company probably acts nothing if you don't voice out. It's not comfortable but aren't you feeling not comfortable with others are getting higher pay as well?

[peschu]

The obvious conclusion from your description would be: Make noise! :-)

[dyeje]

> But I never discussed compensation related things with my manager.

This is the problem. If you don't ask for something you probably won't get it.

[probinso]

change jobs and tell the people who you are interviewing with that your desired income is at the upper bracket of your peers. software development is a worker's market. either that or if you want to stay with this company, invert the proposal. ask for proportional additional vacation to the difference in pay. vacation is more valuable anyways

[giantg2]

The irrational, emotional, part of me wants to tell you to find a new job just ghost the current company.

[adit20]

Thanks. Contemplating it but a little hesitant since the expectation will be very high in a new job. (I am in 40's) . Interestingly, last week one of my old friends called me all of a sudden. He is the co founder and CEO of a funded startup. He wanted to hire me without any interview. I dont think I will join. But gives some comfort. I thought there were no takers for 40+ guys.

[superdeeda]

You can use that offer to negotiate with your current employer. If your friend hasn't given you a number yet, ask what they'll be willing to offer you. Use that number to talk to your current employer and say something like "I got this offer from another company. I really enjoy working here and if you can match this offer, I'd rather stay here."

[giantg2]

Yeah, my suggestion is not a good one. I just wanted to vent it because I've had the same thought myself. It is fun to imagine though.

[Jemaclus]

> I never discussed compensation related things with my manager

Unfortunately, that's your mistake. I firmly believe that you don't get what you don't ask for. Generally speaking, managers (and I am a manager) often assume that if you aren't speaking up, you're happy with your job and they don't need to worry about you. Good managers will check in often and make sure that's actually true. Great managers will ensure that you are compensated fairly without you having to ask. But there aren't a lot of great managers out there, so...

The advice here is simple: speak up.

Pro tip: don't ask for a raise, tell them it's time for a raise. "Hey boss, I've been here for N years, my reviews are consistently good, and my level of responsibility has been increasing. It's time for a raise. Given my current salary, $Y is reasonable." Do your research and figure out what $Y should be for you. Be confident and clear. Don't say "I think" or "I believe". Just state facts. Try not to get emotional either.

Be clear about your career goals with your boss. The more explicit the better, IMO. "Hey boss, I'm currently a Senior Software Engineer. I would like to be a Principal Software Engineer by this time next year. How can we make that happen?" By stating it explicitly, you've given your boss a direction to go in and by asking for help, you've made it a team exercise. Both are very positive things and will make this all go smoother.

Do not compare yourself to anyone else, and certainly do not bring up anyone else's salary. "Fair" is not something the business believes in, but value is. If you know your own worth, you will get what you want. If they won't play ball, then it's time to look elsewhere.

In the future, you will have to learn how to promote yourself. The simplest thing to do is find a coworker that you trust and that you work well with and just ask them to say kind words about you to the boss. The more visible you are, the easier it is for the company to see value, and the biggest way to be visible is to have others speak on your behalf.

Another great way to increase visibility is to get more responsibility. Again, you don't get what you don't ask for, so be explicit. Ask for more responsibility. Any manager with any sense will wait until you demonstrate competency before you get promoted. You don't often get promoted to "Principal Engineer" unless you're already doing that work. Think of promotions as recognition for work already done, rather than permission to do that work. And the best way to make that happen is to ask for it.

Above all, stay positive. Don't say anything negative to anyone, don't bad-mouth anyone. Don't even mention the "undeserving" folks.

One final tip: forget about everyone else. The people you may think of as "undeserving" may be doing things that are simply unaware of. Managers aren't perfect, but they often have context into what the larger organization is doing that you may lack. I don't know the specifics of your company, but just keep in mind that you may not know as much as you think you do. Worst case scenario, those folks have been looking out for #1 and by all accounts have been successful at it. Now it's your turn. Look out for yourself.

Good luck!

[adit20]

Thank you so much for that advice. Very well said. I appreciate.

[dave_sid]

Ask for a raise. If you don’t get it, stay or go elsewhere.