[AriaMinaei]

Could it be that the extreme forms of taarof you’re seeing happens in some sort of social bubble? I grew up in Iran, I’ve seen and lived with taarof, and I’ve never experienced kind of insincerity you’re describing. Taarof has always been a short back and forth to be gotten over with. The invitations and other acts of generosity on the other hand, have always been sincere.

[eganist]

> Taarof has always been a short back and forth to be gotten over with.

This is how it appears when you haven't had a chance to study it in depth, but the dark magic of taarof is that it impacts every part of life. No fault of yours; it's so deeply infected our culture as to be practically invisible to anyone who's a part of it.

That's also why I mention the patently ridiculous level of backbiting and backstabbing that takes place in our culture - when people who taarof find themselves having to go through with a false offer, especially one that puts one in a substantially disadvantaged position (the "losing" end of the social transaction), the person on the receiving end often ends up subject to undue scorn down the road, or worse.

It's pretty universal. I've seen it in Tehran, Esfahan, Shiraz, Los Angeles, Toronto, Vancouver, Great Neck NY, and DC, and every time I've seen both the taarof social transaction as well as borne witness to the resulting backbiting days later. I can count examples on many more hands than I physically have, and while these are all anecdotes, I've got a high level of confidence based on just the sheer volume of interactions I've witnessed that this is one of the single worst aspects of our culture.

I apologize if my passion on the topic is coming off a bit too strong. I've seen livelihoods ruined because of it.

[novok]

Wow this is nuts. This is the first time I've ever seen such hardcore dislike of taarof. Usually it's referred back as a source of comedy and most people get whats going on fairly quickly. Persians get big houses and you pretty much go on a rotation to dinner party after dinner party. I remember my mom talking about it in her childhood too, especially around nawruz, and with the smaller community I was around it happened in a way, maybe not a few times a weeks but at least monthly. They're wonderful!

Does it result in vain status competitions too? Oh yes, but every culture finds a way to present a status competition somewhere.

This why the 'persian palace' trend among first generation immigrants in LA is a thing BTW if anyone else was wondering why.

Maybe try avoiding the toxic groups you are with? There are toxic groups in every culture that you might be conflating with the culture. Go find some Baha'is where the 'backbiting is the most great sin' puts a tamper on the behavior?

[eganist]

> Go find some Baha'is where the 'backbiting is the most great sin' puts a tamper on the behavior?

I'm quite fond of Baha'i culture, honestly. Even though I don't put stock in the religion itself, they seem fairly dedicated towards mental discipline and radical candor (honesty of mind etc). And it's only with these circles of (Persian) friends that I haven't observed the kind of backbiting I've been railing against in my comments here.

Really, taarof is exactly as gross as I'm saying it is, because when it goes wrong (and it goes wrong a minority of times but frequently enough to matter), it does so in spectacular fashion. It spawns the kind of vitriol that ruins friendships with grudges, all because someone ended up having to give or do something they didn't want to do but projected for the sake of image.

It's unnecessary, it's rarely amusing, and it breeds malcontent.

Thanks for listening. I recognize it sounds extreme, but I've never seen anything good come from it in any of the many circles I'm in.

[openfuture]

Weird. I've been to Iran and had many discussions about this custom 'taarof' except(!) it is my _northerner_ custom... no Iranian mentioned they had the same culture and I'm sure someone would have! I talked to kids, expats and others who wouldn't hide such facts.

Where I am from a host is obligated to offer a traveler all they can, even if it means they won't survive the winter, the traveler is obligated to decline since it could be that his acceptance of such offerings will starve (kill) his hosts come winter.

My insistence on declining kind offers was considered quite rude and I got called out for it a few times, prompting such discussions, absolutely no one ever at any point in time mentioned that there was such a custom in Iran.

There seemed to be a universal acknowledgment that the Iranian custom was the opposite; you should accept all offerings and leave leftovers to signal you are done eating because if you finish your food and refuse more it suggests that your host is poor which slights them.

Idk if this conspiracy you describe will explain away my experience but just figured I'd share for other readers.