[bennettfeely]

They mention it in the article but we should really be calling this what it really is, 21st century eugenics.

It's not "changing who gets born and who doesn’t", it's killing the weak, the unwanted, the vulnerable.

It's saying that our lives have meaning and worth and dignity only so long as we are wanted and not a burden to others.

Few minds and opinions change on HN but I encourage anyone viewing this as a positive development of society to meet someone with down syndrome in person and ask if that person would be better off killed.

[GordonS]

> I encourage anyone viewing this as a positive development of society to meet someone in person with down syndrome in person and ask themselves if that person would be better off killed.

I have a daughter with Down's (I've posted a couple times in this thread already), but I still view this as a positive development.

I love my daughter dearly, and would die for her if need be - and I don't see any contradiction with this; I don't want my daughter to have Down's and the additional possibility of health issues that goes with it, or of course the inevitable societal issues. Her life is going to be a lot harder than that of a typical person, and of course it has been and will continue to be tough on her parents.

But this isn't about parents killing their existing children, it's about allowing future parents to make a choice whether to bring someone with possibly very severe disabilities into the world.

[Fumtumi]

'killed'. Abortion is not killing.

Our society defines it as okay. You apparently don't agree with this but you are not the majority here.

No human aborts a fetus for fun.

My wife and i lost our 'fetus' on the 3 month mark. There have been a lot of thoughts about this experience and lots of emotions. And i would probably abort a fetus with Down Syndrom.

No one is doing an abortion easy. It is never easy for whatever reason and its not your place to criticize it when its not your responsibility.

You have to understand one thing: People are able to seperate the wish of not having a kid with down syndrom from other human beings who have down syndrom.

[Damorian]

Posts like this confuse me. It is absolutely killing a human. This is a scientific fact. The moral question is whether or not they are a person, or otherwise, whether or not they deserve rights, at various points of development, and apparently, any medical conditions they have or may have in the future, based on probabilities from current medical research.

[Fumtumi]

its not. You can think you define it like this, but our society is not killing humans when we abort.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus

" The other question related to the beginning of human life is even more difficult to answer. It is the fertilization of the egg cells; but a conglomeration of cells in the early phase of pregnancy can hardly be characterized as a human person. The human identity, personality, and worth is associated with the functioning of the brain, so only when the brain is fully developed can there be any talk about an unborn human being." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7476658/

Just because you say 'It is absolutly killing a human' your statement is wrong.

[Damorian]

Except those links are exactly my point. "Human" is a species of intelligent animals. "Person", is an entity typically associated with traits humans have. They are different things and the distinction is important. The purpose of your "dehumanizing" language is to detract from the "personhood" being debated.

[Fumtumi]

Nope; I don't need to discuss the 'personhood'.

I'm clearly fine with abortion before the 3th month.

And no if you wanna have it clarified: I think a human being is more than just a small or big blob of cells

My opinion did not change after we lost our 'fetus' in the 3th month. And no seeing a small body lying there was not a nice experience.

[Damorian]

Given the grammar mistakes, I'm assuming English is not your first language, and you aren't properly understanding what I'm saying. It's fine if you don't want to engage, but if you are going to engage, please do so in good faith, seeking to understand the other person as completely as possible, particularly if you are working against a language barrier. I had assumed you were being disingenuous/willfully ignorant before, but I doubt that now, my apologies for making that assumption.

[CarelessExpert]

> They mention it in the article but we should really be calling this what it really is, 21st century eugenics.

No, we shouldn't call it that because that's not what it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

> In this period, people from across the political spectrum espoused eugenic ideas. Consequently, many countries adopted eugenic policies, intended to improve the quality of their populations' genetic stock. Such programs included both positive measures, such as encouraging individuals deemed particularly "fit" to reproduce, and negative measures, such as marriage prohibitions and forced sterilization of people deemed unfit for reproduction. Those deemed "unfit to reproduce" often included people with mental or physical disabilities, people who scored in the low ranges on different IQ tests, criminals and "deviants", and members of disfavored minority groups.

The key element, here, is that eugenics involves the state controlling the rights of the individual to reproduce in the first place.

In this case we're dealing with the exact opposite: providing additional information in support of a person's right to make a decision about whether they shouldn't reproduce.

I would make the claim that, given a positive test for a genetic disorder, forcing a person to bring that fetus to term is in fact far closer to the troubling elements of the eugenics movement--a direct intervention by the state in a person's reproductive decisions--than the current situation.

[mmastrac]

Consider the parent that you are forcing to raise a child that requires a significant amount of work. It's better to have wanted children. Unwanted children will suffer in different ways.

[gadders]

Are you against abortion in general, or just for people with Downs?