[afwe]

I don't personally agree with banning an app for that reason, but "indecent" is a proper adjective for a good chunk of the content you see on TikTok. Sometimes I wonder if bombarding people in the west with this kind of content is a strategy from China, because surely they don't allow such videos in the mainland.

[Firebrand]

This is why the U.S. government is so concerned about TikTok being used as a propaganda tool by the Chinese government:

https://m.tiktok.com/v/6880901448872234245.html

Make a video about disaffected military enlistees go viral on an app filled with impressionable young teens and it’ll discourage them enlisting in the future. Then the algorithm drip feeds them more anti-American content until they become more jaded about the country as a whole.

There’s certainly a discussion to be had about the way the U.S. treats its service members, but I just don’t trust TikTok being the impetus of it.

[boomboomsubban]

>Make a video about disaffected military enlistees go viral on an app filled with impressionable young teens and it’ll discourage them enlisting in the future

How dare they try and counteract the billions of dollars the US military has spent making sure everyone "supports the troops" and convincing teens enlisting is a heroic act.

Basically every complaint I hear about Tik Took is that it opens a path to oppose the omnipresent US propaganda. While I'd prefer getting rid of the propaganda wholesale, I don't understand the strong objection to a Chinese source while showing no concern for the US source.

[barumi]

> How dare they try and counteract (...)

It seems you misspelled "ingerence" with a lot of words.

Even for the absurdly autistic anti-US enthusiasts among us, no one in their right mind sides with the Chinese regime on anything at all, specially human rights.

If the Chinese regime has you in their crosshairs, which I remind you is right now engaged in a massive ethnic cleansing campaign, you better believe they do not have your best interests in mind at all.

[pydry]

Why not? Just because they're a hypocrite doesn't mean they're wrong.

If we applied that logic to the US we'd ignore everything they have to say about camps in Xinjiang (which Chinese nationals with views that are a mirror image of yours usually do).

[barumi]

> Why not? Just because they're a hypocrite doesn't mean they're wrong.

They are wrong. It boggles the mind how anyone refused to understand this. Talk about cutting the nose to spite the face.

> we applied that logic to the US (...)

Putting the blatant whataboutism aside, if you were trying to be honest then you'd be complaining that no one had the right to meddle in anyone else's affairs.

But no, to you having a totalitarian and extensively oppressive regime like the Chinese one, which I remind you is right now executing a blatant ethnic cleansing campaign that would impress Nazi germany, is somehow awesome because it's sabotaging the US?

[boomboomsubban]

>If the Chinese regime has you in their crosshairs, which I remind you is right now engaged in a massive ethnic cleansing campaign

Their target are a people very similar to the Afghanis, which the US has spent twenty years killing far more of then the current Chinese body count. Those Chinese cross hairs don't seem much worse than the US ones.

>you better believe they do not have your best interests in mind at all.

Neither does the US propaganda machine, encouraging me to enlist is far more dangerous to me personally.

[refurb]

You don't understand why propaganda from an authoritarian system with a vested interest in the decline of the US is bad?

[criddell]

I think the point was that propaganda from the military industrial complex with a vested interest in eternal war is also bad for the US.

[throwmeaway_pls]

There are other channels for expressing that opinion. We don’t need a newsfeed from the CCP in the hands of every other teenager in the country.

[boomboomsubban]

We don't need every teenager exposed to countless hours of propaganda glorifying war and demonizing foreigners either but nobody is pushing for the banning of TV and movies.

[cscurmudgeon]

Let us talk when China's TikTok equivalent allows similar content by PLA members inside China.

[FooBarWidget]

If they go down that route, doesn't that legitimize other countries banning any app for 'national security' reasons? A lot of people are bitter about China banning Facebook and Google, and support the banning of Tiktok in order to take revenge, but what about the implications of it?

[jdeibele]

If India, France, Tunisia, Zimbabwe and many others all have their own home-grown version of Facebook, is that a bad thing? It would reflect the local culture and keep the advertising revenue in the same country.

There have been few, if any, improvements on the user side of Facebook since inception. All their attention is focused on driving engagement and advertising revenue.

[FooBarWidget]

I am not saying that having local versions of apps is a bad thing. I am just annoyed that so many people yell 'but China is not playing fair, so it's revenge time' at the same time. It's both disingenuous and pure spite.

[ashtonkem]

Of course, this also raises the uncomfortable prospect that the disaffected enlistee content is genuine, and that the propagandists don’t like it.

[bilbo0s]

That only proves there's propaganda on all sides. No one said anyone is a good guy, only that the interest is in keeping adversarial propaganda at bay.

[jariel]

The issue is not the authenticity of the claim.

It's easy to find anyone to have any opinion you want.

The issues is the legitimacy of the popularity, targets, the censorship of opposing claims etc. etc..

It's easy to see how many press outlets bend the truth to suit their narrative, now imagine how far that could be bent by a foreign actor.

'Media' in it's classical forms is effectively a protected industry, it's less evident in the US, but it's de-facto true.

TikTok content is all over the place - some of it is surely going to be problematic and those things can spike. Most things that are 'taboo' attract considerable attention, and are likely to be promoted by attention-based algorithms.

In particular, I've seen a lot of young girls advertising their personal porn pages. I don't so much have a problem with that legally ... but I certainly have concerns about normalizing sex work among our 18 year olds. We actually do curate content out of social concerns etc. - it's why you don't see 'porn' on CNN, but if you want to get it, of course you can in a free society.

[082349872349872]

As an impressionable teenager my friends and I watched The Hunger, a nearly six thousand second movie, but (as far as I know) none of us ever became lesbian vampires.

In fact, it wasn't until a few years ago that I even learned of the 1872 context, thanks to a second-world remake: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmilla

[gabruoy]

You didn't go to the theater for your news, and by your own admission you didn't assume that the movie you were watching was reality.

Teenagers on TikTok believe that the things are of real people giving real stories, as they likely are. But the sense of popularity and constant repetition gives a false narrative of a vocal minority that likely isn't real, but is impossible to verify, except that the powers that be (being the Chinese government) are allowed to manipulate the recommendations for or against whatever the content is going to be.

[garyfirestorm]

What happened to first amendment?

[dwaltrip]

The first amendment doesn’t apply to foreigners outside the US.

[retrac]

That's an interesting interpretation. In Canada, Charter free expression rights have been interpreted to include the right to access and read information, so censorship of foreign publications generally infringes the rights of Canadians who might wish to view them.

Of course I suppose that infringement is sometimes justifiable. Obviously free expression has limits and we do have probably-constitutional laws against foreign propaganda. But the government can't just ban a book because it was by a foreigner, thankfully.

[vaccinator]

I'd be ok with most wars if they took place in space with remote controlled toys.

[082349872349872]

For a good chunk of the content you see on TikTok, maybe, but not that I see. (I did just see uncovered female hair in one video though, so maybe we have differing standards of "indecent"?)

Nietzsche was prescient about the interwebs: "... if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."

Detim to vide fit, fit vide to oso. (while you watch the feed, the feed watches you.)

[smusamashah]

FYI uncovered hair are absolutely not a problem in Pakistan. Just look up for any Pakistani TV show, see the audience or anyone.

I have mostly seen extremely stupid videos on TikTok and get amazed how people make this stuff.

[nullsense]

So that's what Nietzsche was talking about. Good spotting.

[OJFord]

I've never used it - what governs what you see vs. what GP sees, 'following' different people as on Twitter?

[tonyarkles]

This is based on my admittedly little experience with TikTok, but it seems like they do a ton of analytics based on how long you stay on a given video. Pretty sure every action you do plays into The Algorithm.

There’s jokes about there being different TikToks based on this. Like “gay TikTok”, “farmer TikTok”, etc. As a point of reference, TikTok for the occasional time I use it will be a mixture of:

- farming / horses / archery

- construction workers and mechanics either doing really sketchy stuff or providing really useful stuff

- two strippers who tell funny/cringey stories from work (I don’t follow them, they just keep showing up and telling ridiculous stories, which I listen to, which reinforces The Algorithm)

[082349872349872]

I hope that first category has plenty of archers on horses shooting at targets on round bales?

Bonus Scyth: https://d30womf5coomej.cloudfront.net/c/d4/0cb93d1b-dc27-43d... (The bow carrier is a thing because stringing a 25 lb bow from the saddle works, but stringing a recurve is not so trivial. She doesn't have a thumb ring, but I don't know if the artist knows any better than I do by whom and when those were used on the steppe.)

[afwe]

If I wanted to see naked women on tiktok, I would not complain about it.

If you make a new profile on tiktok (or just download the app) you will see a few women in borderline pornographic videos. That's all it took for me to remove the app, which means I did not give the app much time to learn about my tastes.

[082349872349872]

Maybe because I use tiktok.com? I currently see:

1. bun in a watermelon swing.

2. dogs in headscarves listening to something bollywood-like

3. a train (with unusual horn, or maybe that's just a train-horn sounding soundtrack)

4. someone playing with a horizontally wiping sampler

5. someone pretending to demonstrate internet connectivity in different countries. (if true, albania is worse than turkey?)

of which the only indecency I can think of is "representational art" and I guess people who care about that surf with lynx.

====

At a stretch, the best I can do is view #1 and think "My anaconda don't want none / Unless you've got buns, hun." and even that fails due to the singular, not plural, bun.

Incidentally, was it from HN that I learned about the very small-audience potential nightclub use of the International Code of Signals?

Foxtrot: I am disabled; communicate with me. (aka The Sorority Mating Call, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24737386 )

Quebec: My vessel is healthy

Tango: I am engaged in pair trawling

One might even imagine conversations, along the lines of Wuthering Heights by semaphore:

beginning of the evening

A) Yankee, Zulu, Kilo: I am dragging my anchor. I require a tug. I wish to communicate with you.

B) November, Xray: Negative. Stop carrying out your intentions and watch for my signals.

end of the evening

B) Papa: All hands report on board. Putting out to sea.

A) Charlie: Affirmative.

at B's apartment

B) Mike Alfa Bravo: I request you to make rendezvous in position indicated.

A) Alfa: Diver down.

B) Golf: I require a pilot.

A) Charlie: Affirmative.

B) Hotel, Sierra: I have a pilot on board. I am operating astern propulsion.

after the walk of shame

A) India Tango, Alfa November: I am on fire. I need a doctor.

Bonus wooden ships: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24301933

[anonymfus]

> Sometimes I wonder if bombarding people with this kind of content is a strategy from China, because surely they don't allow such videos in the mainland.

You basically followed the tracks of the thought process of some vatniks here in Russia who believe that there is no censorship in Russia because public TV channels show erotics and gore here. The idea that if somebody has power of censorship they will necessary use it for public good is absurd.

[ptx]

The Chinese communist party does censor that kind of thing though (in addition to politically inconvenient facts and opinions) to enforce what they believe are good morals for the public good.

[metalgearsolid3]

Have you heard of the American TV Show Jackass? Debauchery and indecency is well celebrated in American culture.

Regardless of "strategy", algorithmic content delivery is going to be used for propaganda, period. What's really fascinating is it kind of happened over night, when Instagram and Twitter were updated to not display content in chronological order. Personally, I took for granted how much bigger than a "UX change" this was.

[FooBarWidget]

Why should Tiktok follow Chinese law when operating outside China? Were this about any other subject, then restricting the amount of content to Chinese standards would make people scream 'censorship'.

Shouldn't Tiktok follow the local laws of the user's country? And if so, doesn't that mean that, if we reject censorship on ideological grounds, that Tiktok should allow all content permitted by local laws, rather than a subset of it?

[cheweh]

>bombarding people in the west with this kind of content is a strategy from China

This is the premise of Arthur C. Clarke's short story, "I Remember Babylon" (which was first published in Playboy in 1960).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Remember_Babylon

[082349872349872]

If that had really happened, that premise would have explained the sino-soviet split.

In https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7xo7rtSwwI&t=1615 (warning for the rural US, or for rural PK: female nipples) I don't know much of what the TV commentor is on about with regard to the French Quarter, but I'm pretty sure I heard "exploitation" and "bourgeois" in there.

[selimthegrim]

They show a clip of Jim Garrison (JFK conspiracy theorist) being interviewed soon after

[082349872349872]

According to https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/04/26... JFK conspiracies should have a new drop in about a year.

Thanks for the local colour. Is the Tulane Card still accepted for drive-thru daquiris?

Edit: from wikipedia "Garrison explains that cover stories were circulated in an attempt to blame the killing on the Cubans and the Mafia but he blames the conspiracy to kill the president firmly on the CIA who wanted to continue the Cold War." I don't know about CIA specifically (nor do I know the Mafia be completely distinct from them), but there is the coincidence that Kennedy and Khrushchev, having averted global thermonuclear war together, soon after were both cancelled.

Edit2: as long as I'm already thinking of conspiracy theories, sometime I'll have to rewatch Cool Hand Luke to see if a valid retcon would be that Boss Godfrey doesn't have much to say because his name (in northern italy, where he served under Karl Wolff) was Marco Gottifredi, and he changed it when he escaped down a ratline at the end of the war to the US south. But he's laconic because his english still isn't so good.

[selimthegrim]

I do not think the Splash card is accepted at any drive thru spots, which were closed until recently due to the pandemic.

[simion314]

The explanation is much more simpler and clear, some categories of videos are more popular then others, is "indecent" videos are boosted by the algorithm is because they are popular. Similar effect with thumbnails on youtube and clickbait on articles, there is no evil conspiracy except the holly Dollar.

[082349872349872]

One of the fun subplots in Gravy Planet (1952) is how Fowler Schocken is the ad agency for the upper consumers and its competitor Taunton for the lower consumers. (with all the various product cameos, our narrator has many occasions to demonstrate brand loyalty)

I don't remember if the distinction was ever explicitly in there or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if Taunton aims for the Page Three level while Fowler aims for a more ambiguous "Does she... or doesn't she? Only her hairdresser knows for sure."

(for Fowler's attributed copy, anyway. We know their whisper campaign material includes dirty limericks: https://archive.org/stream/galaxymagazine-1952-06/Galaxy_195... )

[vladvasiliu]

Is this actually that much different from Facebook / Instagram?

I've only used tiktok once for like 10 minutes just to see why everyone was talking about it. I also don't often use facebook, so my experience may be somewhat biased.

I know it's possible to curate the IG feed, but in my experience going on the "search" page (or whatever it's called, the one with the magnifying glass) I'm bombarded with scantly clad women. I don't follow anyone who posts pictures even remotely related to this.

[jaflo]

I’m curious as to what type of content you refer to as being indecent. Is this adult/risqué content? I’m unclear about the connection to strategy of bombarding the west then, I feel like there are plenty of other places to find such content.

[0xdeadb00f]

I know someone who watches tiktok with their wife exclusively, because they enjoy watching it together like you would TV, simple as that.

But they still always get the odd "indecent" post.