[throwawayinfo]

As an actual Tory (not popular around here I'll admit) I'm amazed at how Boris' attempt to make everyone happy has resulted in across the board hate. It's the same mistake that Theresa May made, so surely you'd think he'd understand that.

[nicoburns]

The problem with the current government is they're failing at the basics. There were obvious things that could have been done but weren't that should have made everyone happy because they really aren't (party) political issues. Like mandating mask use back in February. Or allocating funds for PPE to companies that are actually capable of producing it. I heard a government minister on the radio the other day saying they hadn't anticipated the increase in demand for testing when schools went back. How did they not anticipate that!? Anybody with half a braincell could have told you that. They deserve all the hate they're getting for sheer incompetence.

[thu2111]

Back in February the WHO's position was that it wasn't yet a pandemic and that masks were useless. Their advice was merely to protect healthcare workers and to protect those who were most vulnerable.

Expecting Boris to have mandated mask usage in February is bizarre, not a single country or health authority anywhere was even considering doing that back then and remember - all the scientific studies said that masks were of unclear or no value in stopping the spread of flu, one of the closest analogues. So that's some pretty serious Captain Hindsight behaviour going on here.

[giardini]

Is there any good evidence to date that we should use masks? Reason I ask is that I was reading this:

https://archive.is/xfHiL#selection-407.27-407.105

and, although the title is pretty fierce, it does seem to be well-argued and b/c today it was revealed that the author is someone who works for Fauci at CDC!

[thu2111]

Not that I know of, no. But there sure are a lot of people on HN who get mad if you point that out. Look at my comment history to see the long and frankly tiresome battle against COVID hysteria dating back to March (when people were claiming Italian hospitals were already turning people away en-masse and ventilators were already exhausted, although it wasn't true!)

[craydandy]

I read your entire comment history couple of weeks ago.

Great experience! Thank you for providing level headed and well articulated responses to the widely spread mass hysteria.

I also learned a lot, special thanks for pointing Thomas Howell's books. Reading now the 'A Conflict of Visions'.

[lexicality]

If you don't mind me asking, what attracts you to the Tory party? Everyone I know seems to despise them for all the cuts to social welfare and racist comments, so I'd be very interested to get some thoughts from outside the echo chamber.

[dijit]

I can answer at least something, though I'm not a Tory, so someone please correct me if I'm mischaracterising:

1) David Camerons right to own policy was very favourable among young adults who felt like they will never be able to own a home. I had a friend of mine tell me that he "selfishly" voted tory because of that policy.

I didn't have the heart to tell him where the money came from.

2) Tories are good at projecting a feeling of "control" and making their opponents seem a bit chaotic or not as clear. Their opponents do not help themselves here.

This is my own observation, I see often that tories will speak clearly with a single voice and paint labour as being "in chaos" or that labour is seriously divided on key issues.

3) People are generally afraid of immigration. Tories are on the anti-immigration side of things publicly (though, this is betrayed by their actual policies, because immigration brings a lot of wealth to the country.)

4) People don't like taxes, and see the cuts to public services as "eventually coming to them". This was told to me by my friends father who voted tory.

[throwawayinfo]

Pretty much the Brexit issue and how incompetent Labour have been lately.

When I was younger I definitely favoured Labour, but drifted towards Tory/Brexit party when Brexit happened. I don't particularly like giant power structures and want small government - Labour will never give me that. I also strongly identify with core conservative values, even if the Tories don't project them very well, I don't see an alternative.

Sibling comment is fairly on point.

TL;DR: "The least worst" party (imo).

[mercer]

What would you consider 'core conservative values'?

[throwawayinfo]

- Small government

- Pro free speech (or as The Guardian like to describe me, "free speech extremist")

- Equality of opportunity (but not "positive" discrimination), NHS and safety nets fit here

- Proud of our country and history, and acknowledging the bad parts without trying to destroy them

- Capitalism/free markets over intense regulation

- Pro small business and anti corporatism

- Self responsibility

So definitely not the current Tory party, but more ideologically aligned with me than any other.

[lexicality]

Thanks for answering! I'd love to discuss your values in more detail but this really isn't the place to do that.

For now, I'd definitely ask you to consider if supporting the current party (which as you note is antithetical to some of your values) might damage the country or move it too far away from your ideals?

I generally feel let down by all the major political parties, so I've been attempting to vote for whoever will do the least harm but it's so hard to figure that out these days :/

[throwawayinfo]

The problem is there's very few electable parties. I'm a fan of the Brexit Party but I doubt they'd ever get a real platform to get in. My only other options are protest votes, so all incentives point to the Tories. Being part of the party (rather than an outsider) at least allows me to influence it. Hopefully Labour bounces back, but as long as they stay on their current course, they're generally unelectable for us northerners.

[dazc]

Boris was handed a large majority and could have played to his side only. Choosing not to do this was an obvious error but, in a age where the media are setting the daily narrative, I can understand why.

[throwawayinfo]

Eh... Boris' job is literally to make decisions, some of which may be intensely unpopular or criticised by the media. Being spineless is not a vote winner.

[dazc]

I thought I was, more or less, saying this?

[rsynnott]

I think part of the issue there is that he doesn't _have_ a side as such. He was elected by a historically bizarre coalition, driven by the Brexit issue.

[dazc]

No, you are correct and having a side, as such, was the wrong term. Swap 'his side' for people who were fed up of political posturing and just wanted to get things done. That thing was obviously Brexit, at the time, but I think it also applies to 'things' in general.

In other words, taking the Covid issue head-on and making decisions in spite of what the media reaction would be may be something that the same group of people could support?

What we have now is a PM and Govt being criticised from all 'sides'. A classic example of trying to please everyone and actually pleasing no one, if you like?

[rsynnott]

> In other words, taking the Covid issue head-on and making decisions in spite of what the media reaction would be may be something that the same group of people could support?

I don't think they would have, though, at all. The "get Brexit done" sentiment is mostly popular amongst people who discount the chance of Brexit having any significant impact on their lives (there's polling on this; the most pro-brexit people are also, oddly, the ones most likely to think that Brexit won't actually do anything much in terms of practical impact on their everyday lives). Whereas decisive action on covid would have been, in the short to medium term, far more disruptive than what has actually been done.

[thu2111]

How is that odd? Isn't that to be expected? The argument against Brexit made by the Remain campaign consisted almost entirely of very bad things will happen, the sky will fall, mass unemployment etc. If you don't believe that it's natural to be more pro Brexit.

Actually that last sentence may not be obvious. On his blog, Dominic Cummings made a rather important point about the UK and EU that largely escaped notice: the EU is broadly unpopular with a clear majority of the British population. The idea that the EU sucks is widely accepted. The referendum was a (somewhat) close match only because a significant proportion of the people who don't like the EU and would have wanted to leave feared the terrible consequences they were promised.

People who genuinely support the EU as a project has never really got higher than about a third of the population:

https://dominiccummings.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/screensh...

This is why the EU/Remain strategy during the campaign was so unrelentingly negative. The message was consistently not the EU is great and we should stay because it makes sense, the message was the UK's nominal allies will inflict great punishment if it leaves. This was a rather cynical but understandable political calculation when you see the polls. Fear motivates. It nearly dominated and caused Remain to win.