Ask HN: Overcoming Burnout / Imposter Syndrome

[hehsjsbb]

The past 2 years have been pretty rough for me professionally. At my previous job I was asked to lead a massive compliance effort that was doomed to fail, and then moved onto a team that had very little technical work and which was constantly blocked by internal politics. Instead of working on interesting technical projects I became bitter and cynical as it became increasingly clear it would be impossible to accomplish anything.

I found a new role with a small start-up where it seemed like I would be able to build meaningful things and collaborate with people again. I took some time off and tried to come at it with a clear head, but there have already been a few discouraging situations where I feel like my coworkers don't respect me. The work that I have done doesn't seem meaningful, it's kind of "leftovers" that nobody else on the team wants to do. On a few occasions I tried to make proposals but they were heavily criticized.

At this point I feel extremely isolated from the team, and like all I can do is stay out of the way and do what people ask. I'm constantly worried about being told I'm not good enough technically. I've basically given up on trying to have an opinion because it doesn't seem to matter.

Does anyone have advice? I feel like if I could take on one big project and be successful it might make everything click. But I've also read that working harder feeds into burnout and the best solution would be to disengage and take 3-6 months off.

[rboyd]

Step 1: Realize this says more about the team/org than it says about you. Don't internalize much of this. Recall some of the most difficult projects you've taken on successfully. If you have something to be proud of, remember that you actually are pretty talented.

Step 2: Consider that there's a high probability that you were hired to clean up the mess. Maybe your teammates would like nothing more than for you to jump on the grenades so they can tackle the high-profile projects and get the promotions. In this context it probably starts to make more sense what's happening here. Giving negative feedback is a cheap and easy way for your teammates to signal to management what the ranking order is (especially if management is non-technical or too busy to look at the details).

Step 3: Decide if it's worth staying. This could mean playing the long game. It could mean having a strategy to rep up with management behind the scenes. It could mean doing the hard work of shoveling in the trenches and playing code janitor to earn the respect. It could just mean collecting the paychecks and associating less of your identity with this job while you pursue hobbies, family, whatever else.

Spend some time with your teammates on a social level and find some common ground. If you all like each other first it's easier to work together and harder to criticize.

[zipperhead]

This is very insightful. Like, I've been on the other side of this (hoping this experienced new hire will fix up some of the mess I don't have time to do), and have probably never even realized it.

In fairness, if the new person is competent it's usually very clear early on, and they tend to move on to better things fairly quickly.

[hehsjsbb]

Thanks! This whole discussion has definitely made me focus on #1 and helped with my imposter syndrome.

I think #2 is probably too 3D chess for an org this small and flat. It really seems like this is just the culture and maybe it works for some people? I'm not a man so I'm kind of excluded by default as well.

#3 is definitely the big question - I don't think toiling away is going to earn respect, but it will get me a paycheque. It's funny that people on here seem to think getting assigned shitty tasks will make people think you're a rockstar instead of, you know, the person who does all the shitty tasks. In my experience that kind of reputation is self-perpetuating and, as you say in #2, not really recognized or promotable.

[burntoutfire]

> I took some time off and tried to come at it with a clear head, but there have already been a few discouraging situations where I feel like my coworkers don't respect me. The work that I have done doesn't seem meaningful, it's kind of "leftovers" that nobody else on the team wants to do.

It's called "paying your dues" and exists in all industries. You need to earn respect of your new colleagues by doing some of that shitty work and doing it well. If all goes well, in a couple of months you'll be a part of the in-group and will get the interesting tasks.

[CloudNetworking]

> It's called "paying your dues" and exists in all industries. You need to earn respect of your new colleagues by doing some of that shitty work and doing it well. If all goes well, in a couple of months you'll be a part of the in-group and will get the interesting tasks.

"Pay one's dues" "Earn respect" "Part of the in-group"

I am sorry but this is not my experience at all. What you've described is how gangs work, not companies.

I am hired to work on certain areas due to my skills and knowledge. Shitty tasks are everyone's (in the team) responsibility. I am not hired to "pay my dues" and "earn respect" to become "part of the in-group". I'd leave that initiation ritual to other, uh, industries.

[toomuchtodo]

Following on to this, earning the trust of your colleagues takes time and effort. “Paying your dues” doesn’t capture the nuance in my opinion.

[burntoutfire]

Perhaps you're right, English is not my native language.

[toomuchtodo]

I couldn’t tell, your English is very good. I hope my comment didn’t come across in any way as a sleight, my apologies if so.

[hehsjsbb]

I said this in another thread but I've been in the industry for 10 years. I don't expect to come in and rearchitect things on day 1, but I expect the tasks to be meaningful. The stuff I'm working on isn't an on-ramp to bigger tasks or being better integrated with the rest of the team, it's a silo that nobody wants to touch.

If your perspective is that onboarding is basically hazing people have to do to fit in at your company, I think that's pretty messed up. The best places I worked at tried to get people to ship meaningful features that would have an impact quickly.

[Aperocky]

> it's a silo that nobody wants to touch.

There are multiple silos of this where I work, not necessarily because nobody wants to touch it, but because we just don't have enough people.

I've picked one of them up and my teammate now come to me for advice when they deal with this silo of stuff.

Don't underestimate the small things, unless they're things that does not need to be done, in which case you need to raise this at planning and explain how they are not necessary to waste effort on, and bury them forever.

[hehsjsbb]

I've been kind of deliberately vague, but after a couple months it isn't like I'm an expert on the area of the codebase now and other people come to me for advice. Other team members actively dodge working on this silo and everything just gets deflected to me. It doesn't feel like being a respected person who has experience with an area of the codebase, it just feels like shit rolling downhill.

[burntoutfire]

Not neccessarily hazing, but it's only natural that you won't be able to, on day 1, co-design the big refactor or switching from platform A to B or a big feature which touches existing code in very many places. Instead, you'll be given smallerand well defined tasks (which often means that they're boring) that will allow you to familiarize yourself with the codebase, the process, the team members etc.

[dakiol]

So, who in your opinion should work on the stuff "nobody wants to touch"? It's clearly a job that has to be done.

[hehsjsbb]

Ideally it would round-robin across the team or have a dedicated team with more than one person. Having only one person know a particular part of the codebase is bad for bus factor and reduces the ability of the team to review code.

[gjvc]

> On a few occasions I tried to make proposals but they were heavily criticized.

I'm going to overload on metaphors, I hope you don't mind. :-) Sounds like perhaps you are encountering a cultural impedance mismatch. While you might be thinking that the way forward on some project is to get some shared knowledge and understanding of a problem you see needing a solution, this can sometimes be taken as idle speculation, when in fact it's an earnest attempt at vigorous debate.

If you find yourself in this situation, stop, relax, and take a deep breath. As others have noted, "trying / working harder" will not work. You need to try a different approach to get a different outcome.

Remember, in smaller outfits, "implementation is 9/10ths of the law". If you have some running code which solves or automates a problem, and is presented well, then only the most foolhardy of people will stand in your way. See if you can work up a prototype / proof of concept on the quiet, then demonstrate it. If it's truly worthwhile, or even if it isn't the reception you get should be all the message you need as to what to do next.

If all else fails, quit. No matter where you are, the opportunity set afforded by the world at large is bigger than your current situation. That's reason enough to be cheerful. Good luck. :-)

[hehsjsbb]

Ironically I'm a "implementation is 9/10ths of the law" believer, the proposals were PRs and working demos. Despite being a small start-up the team is not really into iterative development so much as lots of up-front planning and theory followed by big polished PRs.

I agree if I'm going to succeed I'll need to change my approach. I usually learn by doing and experimenting but it's tough to make incremental changes here to understand the codebase better

[gjvc]

Wow. That's tough. If a working demo doesn't convince them, I'm not sure what will. "See this? Do you want this?" is a pretty simple question. Do they need more evidence of unit- and integration testing? Do they need some/more user feedback before proceeding?

Remember, some people don't listen to reason, some of your wise seed will fall on rocky ground, and don't try to teach a pig to sing. I'll stop now :-) Best of luck again.

[hehsjsbb]

It's mostly code quality / style / archtectural objections. Some of which are understandable since I'm new to the codebase and it's a prototype to show the feature, but taken together all the feedback basically rewrote the entire feature. I've pretty consistently had better experiences contributing to large open source codebases than getting a feature into this codebase so I don't necessarily think it's that I'm bad at receiving feedback?

[terminalcommand]

They might be seeing you as a threat, because they think you might be trying to steal their light.

[gjvc]

I used to not want to believe this kind of thing, but when I started to believe in it, quite a few situations became simple to understand.

[janbernhart]

This doesn't read like Imposter Syndrome, but rather not being aligned with culture/way of working of your current company/team. I've been in that situation and tried working harder. It just made the problem bigger.

If you have a good leader that you trust in your company, have this conversation with him/her. Approach this in a way of how you can be of more value, rather than criticizing the team.

[d33lio]

For me, this has been all about taking short breaks and understanding when to stop at the end of the day.

In order to improve you have to ride yourself pretty hard (otherwise you start running into the opposite problem of not improving or stagnating) but understand when you're starting to "hustle" which is a waste of energy.

Having a good means to re-charge is also essential. Always work to resist conceit / convincing yourself you're being productive when you're not. This is the quickest route to mental illness / burnout by far IMO.

[throwaway568]

That's a frustrating situation.

I've been in it. My work was heavily criticised, my technology choices invalidated, other's choices foisted on me. I was moved into silo-like work. A particular colleague liked to criticise colleagues in their absence, and I was part of those he spoke about - backbiting. This created a sense of exclusion.

This all started when we got a new engineering manager who I didn't click with. I wanted to stay until my tenure was long enough, and to leave with a respected reputation. Here's how I handled it:

1. If there's a tenth of an ounce to learn from the heavy criticism, learn it, improve on it and thank the colleague.

2. Being pushed into technology I had little experience in, I was worried it affected my reputation of competence; I worked hard to learn the new technology, learn from my company's existing code and industry best practices, and pushed to implement it as best as I could. That I worked in a silo meant no one's work depended on mine, and I had time to polish and test to push my work better.

3. When my colleagues report their work in my presence, if there's any part of it that demonstrated competence that I understood or had something to learn from, I pointed out specific aspects that made it good.

More than a year on, this has paid off. I am in a new job using the new technology my colleagues gave me a opportunity to learn. Learning from criticisms really helped me with improving how I deploy design patterns. My relentless struggle to maintain positivity in the face of hostility repaired relationships with some, and built on them with others. This gave me strong references and recommendations. The new job I got paid 20% more, at a time when there was a sudden flood of layoffs due to the coronavirus.

[tdhz77]

It gets better. Respect comes with time. I would be patient and play the long game. I’ve been through this at every job I have ever had. I didn’t go to an IVY league school and others held it against me. You must not give up. Your time will come.

[hehsjsbb]

For some more background, I've been working in the industry for 10 years. In the past imposter syndrome was a barrier but there was interesting work and I got regular feedback from my team that made me feel included. It's only recently that I've become apathetic and withdrawn from giving my opinions.

[gjvc]

This is known as "not putting your hand back on the stove". Perfectly understandable. Next, please realise that you need to be in a place where your experience is valued.

[jdbowman]

This sort of situation is complex, and painful. Please take care of yourself. If the culture is toxic, this job may not be the right fit.

If you want to stick it out in the hopes that a breakthrough is coming, perhaps you want to set goals or milestones. A time-based milestone could look like "I will give this three more months." A criteria-based one might be "I will continue if I receive some affirmation of my abilities this week." Of course, some combination of time and criteria is in order.

Advice falls short in such scenarios. I really hope you find meaning and growth at work, one way or another.

[andrefuchs]

I'm sorry you're going through this. You're absolutely right that working harder is not the solution.

My advice would be to talk to the team or HR about your negative experiences.

If that doesn't help update your resume/portfolio and start finding a new job. (while you're still employed) Please don't stay too long in such a toxic environment - it's not worth it. I don't know you but I don't think you will have a hard time getting a new job.

You can get rid of the imposter syndrome with the help of a cognitive behavioral therapy.

I wish you all the best.

[hehsjsbb]

Thanks for the kind advice :)

My worry is that jumping immediately to a new job might just restart the cycle, especially during COVID when I can't interact with the team in person.

I am working with a psychologist but I might try and focus more specifically on the imposter syndrome.

[dingsingsing]

I think most people at most jobs with stressful deadlines, engineering work, and where individual productivity is measured/praised, feel the same way you do. You aren't crazy or broken for feeling the way you do. Most companies/engineering departments talk about trying to nurture a healthy/pleasant working environment, but that doesn't mean most companies succeed in those efforts. With clients and bosses demanding things constantly, it's not surprising that work environments tend to fall into a negative state despite the noble efforts of a few employees or a VP that talks about building a pleasant work environment.

It sounds like you didn't love your last job, you tried a new type of company (in terms of size of employee count), and you don't love this job or long term project you are working on. There are pleasant companies with fun projects out there to work for, but they are much less common than the companies that suck to work for. Maybe you should write out a list of attributes that you assume an ideal employer/project has, and then start interviewing for those companies/jobs. If you hate your next job as well, rinse and repeat.

Remember your manager is your boss not your friend, so opening up to them that you are unhappy could lead to you being let go or whatever. If you aren't financially stable for 6 months, I wouldn't even tell them this stuff, I would just start prepping for job interviews during off-work hours and try get a new job. If you are comfortable not earning a paycheck for 3-6 months, I would tell my manager this stuff, see what they say, I would not go to HR before manager unless my manager like physically/sexually assaulted me or something. If manager wasnt helpful, I would then go to HR.

At my last job I felt like i was pegged as the dummy on the team, no big deal lol. I think i deserved to be pegged the dummy, maybe you do maybe you don't, regardless of that, you shouldn't worry about it or burn yourself out trying to impress your coworkers because of it (this could all be in your head as well).

Just know, if they are going to fire someone, it might be you and not one of the other all-stars on the team. Try accept that this is out of your control and not stress about it.

What did I do in my last job that i was unhappy with? I spent a few months prepping to interview in off-work hours, eventually I asked for a raise, got denied my raise, interviewed around for a month, and got a new job.

FYI I've worked at a Fortune 500 company (big IT consultant 100,000s of employees), two midsized company (1000ish employees), and two smallish companies > 300 && < 1000. Most places sucked day to day TBH.

[dakiol]

Work on a personal project to get satisfied on a personal and technical level. A job is just a job, if you don't like it, go for another one.