[winphone1974]

I have 2 in elementary and one in middle school. Our public schools will supposedly open physical classes with an online option as well. You need to pick and commit to one. I'm strongly in the physical camp for many reasons, most importantly the online school in the spring was garbage and a lack of socialization at this age is a very real and serious public health concern-for healthy young kids with no underlying health issues maybe as important as COVID itself.

That said I personally don't schools will stay open until even Christmas and don't know what our next step will be. We've investigated private school as the class sizes are much smaller and they have far more flexibility and motivation to make in person learning work.

Context: western Canada with big public school classes and very few cases, the majority impacting very old and those with previous health concerns

[GiorgioG]

> lack of socialization at this age is a very real and serious public health concern

(No offense intended) I keep hearing this and wonder what proof we have of this? I have two kids, one introvert, one extrovert and neither seem to have been impacted. Sure they'd like to hang out with friends, but they're basically the same personality/kids/temperament they had pre-pandemic.

[nxc18]

Not a parent, but fwiw even the fully grown adults I've interacted with are starting to show serious deficits in social skills after months of relative isolation. I've historically been on the socially awkward side, so its kind of refreshing to be the comparatively graceful one.

I don't know if there's evidence, but if this were to go on for years I could see kids missing milestones. Having gone to school with kids who were homeschooled without proper socialization for too long, I can comfortably say social skills need to be learned. It may not seem like much, but not knowing how to interact with peers comfortably is a serious problem, especially as you start to enter situations like interviewing for a job or trying to make friends in a new city.

[bradlys]

> Not a parent, but fwiw even the fully grown adults I've interacted with are starting to show serious deficits in social skills after months of relative isolation. I've historically been on the socially awkward side, so its kind of refreshing to be the comparatively graceful one.

Huh? I've not experienced this at all with anyone I've seen during the pandemic - even with people who I've only talked online with. This includes people who have basically not seen anyone in person for months and aren't working.

What are these "serious deficits in social skills" you're noticing in adults?

[nxc18]

At the few socially distanced gatherings I’ve been too, as well as when running into people in the streets, there’s been a lack of the usual nuance and care that I typically expect. That’s mainly expressed through less careful filtering, either of direct content or indirect content. E.g. evidence of marital strife that would normally be papered over more effectively might come out. Words are chosen less carefully causing unintended meaning to leak out. What might normally be a ‘we’ turns into ‘me’ and ‘her’.

An example from this weekend, I ran into a colleague in town who is having a hard time - his roommate moved back East in May and the core parts of his social group are either immunocompromised or left the area shortly before his current absent roommate moved in. He was having trouble masking how anxious he was. There were untimely interjections. He mentioned wishing he could talk to people who didn’t work for our company - it’s a company town and no one our age/socioeconomic class (that’s an ugly thought but I won’t go down that rabbit hole) works anywhere else. I would expect him to be more nuanced in expressing the idea of hating small talk with people that work at our company, given we were actively making small talk and I work at said company.

Maybe serious is a stretch, but I’m seeing the typical CS/engineer social deficits expressed in people who are in sales/management roles and in people who previously were more capable. It probably wouldn’t stand out in San Francisco or a tech school campus, but in my current circumstances it certainly does.

This isn’t a judgment of anyone involved - everyone I’ve talked about I love to death. As a socially awkward person myself, I tend to love and appreciate other socially awkward people. They just might run into challenges when the stakes are higher.

[bradlys]

> there’s been a lack of the usual nuance and care that I typically expect. That’s mainly expressed through less careful filtering, either of direct content or indirect content.

I wouldn't call those behaviors "socially awkward". Given the time we're in - I think people realize there's little reason to try to save face. In all likelihood, they're trying to be more real about things they're facing because they realize everyone is dealing with a lot of the same shit.

You might also see people reaching out more than they did before (in terms of depth of interaction/complaints - less superficial) because - well - they can't socialize as much with others. They might start socializing with people more intimately than in the past because it's what they have available.

None of the stuff you're saying sounds very... socially awkward. It just sounds more honest...

[pgrote]

We are in the same situation with kids of the same temperament. The extrovert has discovered self initiative play and done some creative things. The introvert discovered roblox and picsart and is now more social than ever before. It has sort of worked out for them.

More to your question, how would you study something like that? Previously home schooled students who had limited social interactions?

[actfrench]

If one were to study that, I don't know if homeschoolers are the best group to look at. Also, it's tricky because there is a big difference between healthy socialization and unhealthy socialization. Are we talking about being completely alone or being in a huge group with no friends?

I don't know that this would work so well because lack of socialization is one of the biggest myths about homeschooling. The homeschoolers I know hang out in the park for hours 2-3 times a week, do skill shares together, take classes and electives, travel the world. This pandemic has been harder , if not more so than other groups, because they can't use the world as their classroom in the way they've done before. Also, many children struggle mighily in school. Just because there are lots of people there doesn't mean kids don't feel incredibly isolated. A bad social experience (Eg being bullied and isolated in school. Bullying and systemic racism run rampant in our schools. Teachers are exhausted spending most of their time managing behavior rather than getting time to teach and facilitate healthy social-emotional learning in the classroom.

I started a digital pod this fall and some of our kids didn't say a single word in class last fall. Now, in a group of 5-6 kids they are actively participating, sharing their hopes and dreams. Some communicate verbally, others prefer to observe.

[rhn_mk1]

> the same personality/kids/temperament they had pre-pandemic.

I would not stop there when considering the topic. Socialization is a process, and its goal is growth, not stagnation.

That being said, it's also gradual, making it difficult to measure over a few months.

[flowerlad]

> lack of socialization at this age is a very real and serious public health concern-for healthy young kids with no underlying health issues maybe as important as COVID itself

Lack of socialization - for a few months - is as serious as a disease that's killing people by the hundreds of thousands?

Even if the kids themselves are at lower risk, they can transmit the disease to parents as well as teachers, who are much more vulnerable.

[mrburkins]

Anecdote: my son is 3.5 and has effectively not been around other children since we left NYC in February. Prior to leaving he was beginning to have a friend group. A group of parents have tried to keep them in touch with FaceTimes etc but to this day he still asks when he can see his friends in real life. We’ve also noticed social regression - especially being afraid of people leaving, not sleeping regularly and random bouts of anger. I’ve heard from other parents who’ve experienced the same. So much happens at this age - learning how to deal with anger, learning how to deal with other kids and their feelings etc. I tend to be a more hands off parent than my wife but even I worry. I hope for the best but I worry.

[actfrench]

I am not sure if this is helpful, but sometimes the best thing to do is simply reflect what the child is feeling and make sure that they really feel heard, rather than trying to make them feel better. When I first started dating my boyfriend, his 3 year old had a lot of discomfort around me. He kept telling me to go away and even butting his head against me or trying to bite me. (Little boys are strong!) I have been a teacher for 15 years and am used to children of all ages adoring me so I didn't know what to do with this situation. I could tell he was really stressed and this hurt my heart. Eventually, I just built a practice of reflecting back to him what he was feeling, making sure I really understood and that he knew I did. If I felt upset, I took some time to sit with my inner child. One night, I put him to bed and he confessed to me that he was afraid he was going to "throw me away." I reassured him that he was not going anywhere. After that things changed a lot between us.

This story might not seem that relevant to your situation, but I think my overall point is that childhood development is not necessarily linear. What seems like social regression could be a new phase he's passing through. Your child may not have had a trauma like COVID happen before and he's learning to deal with it. This crisis may not be parallel to anything we've experienced in our time, but we also do not know what is to come and we can give our children tools to navigate what lies ahead. We all have our ups and downs. As a parent or someone loves children, we yearn so much to help them feel better. It hurst our hearts so much when they are in pain. But sometimes the best thing to do is allow their pain, really listen to it, accept it, let them know we love them, that they're safe...and eventually it passes. This helps them stand strong and process emotions for their whole life. If you would like someone to talk to, feel free to reach out. I'd be happy to connect. It seems to me that if you're thinking about these things deeply that your son is very lucky and he will do quite well. It's been really hard for everyone and I hope you're taking good care of yourself.

[kbutler]

It looks like child-child and child->adult transmission is very rare. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/07/200710100934.h...

We don't know why yet.

[flowerlad]

Older Children Spread the Coronavirus Just as Much as Adults, Large Study Finds:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/health/coronavirus-childr...

[mcv]

Yeah, it's mostly elementary age children who don't seem to spread it. Teenagers seem to be just as bad as adults. In Netherland, recent infections come mostly from older teenagers and young twenty-somethings.

[mcv]

My 11 year old son gets most of his socialisation online these days. It's not ideal; I wish he'd go out more, but under the circumstances, it's actually quite convenient.

[actfrench]

This has been a painfully lonely time for many children. There's no good solution for this. But here are some ways, I've found families have navigated the social isolation piece

-small online clubs -daily scheduled facetime with friends -focusing on developing/nurturing healthy relationships with siblings and parents (this goes along way in building healthy attachments later in life) -socially distanced hikes with friends wearing masks -make friends with one other family who is also socially distancing.

[jeffrallen]

Amen, brother! Physical presence here until the house of cards falls down, then... Shuffle?