[dorkinspace]

Stories like this are why I will never buy a product like Stadia from Google. There is zero guarantee the product and games purchased on the platform will be usable next month (exaggerating a bit) or next year.

This extends to all things Google. When building a new product, I push hard to use any alternative to Google because the future of their products is so uncertain. Sure, there are a few Google products that can be reasonably relied upon, but that list is small.

[totalZero]

Ever since Google told me to buzz off when I contacted them about the bootloop of death that bricked my Nexus 6P immediately after an automatic software update, I haven't bought a single hardware product marketed by them or supported by them. I won't even let myself use Google Fi. They earned my distrust.

[kyrra]

(Googler, opinion is my own)

I think one big thing that differs between the Nexus line and the Pixel line of phones is who was actually supporting the phone after its sale. The Nexus phones were these shared branding between Google and the makers (LG, HTC, whoever). So it led to some pointing at the other person when there were problems.

With the Pixel line, Google fully owns support of the devices, which makes it a bit easier for Google to deal with customer support issues like this.

[m0xte]

Ah yes the famed google customer support. Spent five days trying to get a g-suite dashboard error fixed immediately after provisioning. Eventually I switched to O365 with no regrets. And then there was the bricked chromecast from hell which they wouldn’t even acknowledge. Switched to Apple TV with no regrets.

Add the usual quality control (how many years did my android phone alarm not go off or my SD card get trashed with photos on). Nope!

[prepend]

I don’t accept this line of reasoning but appreciate you sticking up for your employer.

I’ve noticed this tactic more and more. Price a product as if it’s yours, but then disown it when inconvenient.

I can’t imagine Apple saying something like “that’s a Samsung issue, take it up with them” because of a component.

As a customer, I don’t want to have a decoder ring for how to get support for my product. If it says google and is sold by google then google should fix it. Maybe they sub it out to HTC or Huawei or whatever, but don’t make me know about it.

If google makes bad supply chain decisions then own up to it. Not doing so just makes Google seem incompetent at management as I don’t care or have any value in them directly for manufacturing.

[hnick]

> As a customer, I don’t want to have a decoder ring for how to get support for my product.

As an Australian this is so weird to hear. I have a business relationship with the person I gave money to, not some third party factory or manufacturer that I never met. The law requires the merchant to take the return and make it right, after that it's their problem. Most likely they have a better idea about the next step than I would as a random customer.

[pjmlp]

As European same here.

For some strange reason Google supporters never consider that had Google actually cared, there would be support contracts in place with its providers.

Apparently that is something that doesn't exist in US, the hardware maker is the only one to blame.

[totalZero]

It's not a US thing, it's mainly a Google thing. They appear to have decided that they can reduce costs by saying "it's not our problem" in response to customer complaints about defective products. They do this for defects that may not even be rooted in the hardware itself.

My general impression is that most companies are quick to take responsibility for consumer products sold in the US, unless product failure results in liability for a major safety risk (think McDonald's coffee scalds or Ford Explorer rollover accidents).

If the engine computer fails in a BMW due to a widespread defect, the BMW dealer doesn't send the customer to Bosch on a wild goose chase. If a Macbook Pro SSD fails due to a widespread defect, Apple doesn't tell the customer to call Samsung. They either take ownership of the problem and make the customer happy (with the expectation that a brand-loyal customer's next purchase will pay the cost of solving the current problem), or they make an effort to offer some kind of solution at the customer's cost.

[ReverseCold]

I don’t think this is a US thing, it’s just a google thing. The normal thing to expect is what you’ve explained.

[abiogenesis]

To be fair Nexus series was not priced as it was theirs. I remember buying Nexus 4 for $300 while the comparable Samsung was almost twice that.

Pixel is a different story.

[nkrisc]

That's funny, when I bought my Nexus 4 I don't remember the front of the box saying, "Nexus 4: A shared branding between Google and LG." It said "Nexus 4" and had Google's logo displayed somewhere on there. I bought it from store.google.com, my credit card was charged by Google. It said "Google" on the box, so if I had an issue with it I would have expected Google to fix it. Anything less and they'd have been in the wrong.

I get what you're saying, I understand it. But from the consumer's point of view it just doesn't matter. The nature of the business relationship between Google and whomever should not be their concern. It rings of the same cop-out Amazon likes to make, that I'm not dealing with them, I'm dealing with a some third part merchant even though I visited Amazon.com, I paid Amazon, and the item is shipped to me by Amazon. They want to you deal with their suppliers.

[erulabs]

My Pixel broke suddenly after an update. Android debugger console clearly showing a spew of ALSA errors. Hundreds of other people having the issue on forums - been 3 years and no patch has resolved it. I hang onto the phone as a cautionary tale not to purchase anything from google... Have never been able to get a customer rep on the line who can say anything other than "sorry, cant help". No refunds, no RMA, nothing. So... What customer support are you referring to?

If it was an open platform, I'd fix the issues myself. If it was a closed platform, I'd get it replaced. Google fails at being non-Apple and also fails at being Apple.

[0134340]

This also happened with many people's Nexus Players, a Roku/Firestick competitor, myself included. It's co-developed by both Google and Asus. Of course after the update bricked them Google tried to blame Asus and put it on their shoulders to provide a fix and Asus seemed to do the same. Needless to say, I won't buy Google products anymore.

[dungdang]

dear googler. fyi -this is what that thinking and lack of integrity and support does:

you have gcp. working for vars over the years, per year i sell over $10mil of solutions that run or dr to cloud. i have not once put gcp as an option in front of a customer - all azure or aws. google has, and will, lose millions in gcp revenue. because of me. and this is true for most vars.

now, as far as others in my office -8 people like me. only one puts gcp in proposals. he's new.

this is very common. we don't trust or respect your offerings -too flaky, not going to risk our customer relationship when you drop the ball and we get the hit for proposing a bad solution. and yours are all bad solutions. not because of function -because it's risky for a business to be involved with you in any way, or count on you for anything.

you probably lose 50-80mil annually from my office alone. and it's not just lost cash. it goes to your direct competitors.

and i don't know a single person who wants you to fix your practices and act like a real company. only 2 real cloud players drives up prices, and we get more on our spiffs.

and last i checked, aws and azure have been, are, and will always be kicking your ass. because even if you fix your business practices now, you'll have to wait 30 years before all the sales staff and company decision makers retire. and that is eternity in tech time.

do you, yahoo!? see you on myspace.

[totalZero]

That's a poor (and partially false) defense for Google's handling of the Bootloop of Death, for the following reasons:

I bought Google's flagship handset online from the Google Store. It was branded as the "Google Nexus 6P", it was shipped to me by Google, and it bricked itself while booting after a Google-supplied Android update. Google provided and managed the warranty. I had one warranty claim with them prior to my phone bricking itself, handled entirely by Google; Huawei was not involved in that claim at all.

My relationship as a consumer of a Google product is with Google, not with its contract manufacturer.

The Bootloop of Death affected multiple SKUs across different Nexus models. The 5X was manufactured by LG for Google, and the 6P was manufactured by Huawei for Google. The Bootloop of Death was present on both models.

If Google has a quarrel with Huawei, LG, or another contract manufacturer over the cost of managing a defect, that's their prerogative. However, I am not party to that quarrel. I am just a customer who bought Google's flagship handset.

Google suggested that I contact the nearest Huawei service center...in mainland China. The company took an arrogant "who, me?" attitude toward its flagship handset, and tried to weasel its way out of dealing with valid customer complaints, rather than taking some semblance of responsibility for an obvious problem.

> The Nexus phones were these shared branding between Google and the makers (LG, HTC, whoever)

This is not true. The Nexus 6P was marketed by Google, not in a shared manner. You're thinking of the Nexus 6, a Motorola-made device that preceded the 6P and was offered in some markets without Google branding.

> With the Pixel line, Google fully owns support of the devices, which makes it a bit easier for Google to deal with customer support issues like this.

Google fully owned support for the Nexus 6P until the bootloop issue came around, at which point Google changed its policies. Also, Pixel devices have been manufactured by competing handset manufacturers for Google (Pixel 2 phones were manufactured by HTC and LG).

The result of my experience is that I will never, so long as I live, ever buy another Google hardware product. Not a single one. I will not buy a Nest Thermostat. I will not buy a Chromecast. If my best friend has a lapse in judgment and makes the mistake of buying a Pixelbook, I will wait for him to leave it on the couch, unintentionally sit on it, and buy him a 16" Macbook Pro as a replacement -- apologizing profusely all the while, unlike Google support which was ostensibly trained not to use the phrase, "I'm sorry." Every time someone tries to defend Google for its handling of the Nexus Bootloop of Death fiasco, I add twenty years to the length of time that the trustees of my estate will prohibit my assets from being used to buy Google hardware products after I am dead and gone.

[belval]

Modern poetry, as someone who got a Nexus 5X that boot-looped after 13 months (just enough so my carrier would say "asks the manufacturer") I wholeheartedly agree with your take. It was a pathetic demonstration of the subpar capabilities of Google to deal with actual paying customer and it makes me angry to this day.

[DoofusOfDeath]

> If my best friend has a lapse in judgment and makes the mistake of buying a Pixelbook, I will wait for him to leave it on the couch, unintentionally sit on it, and buy him a 16" Macbook Pro as a replacement -- apologizing profusely all the while

We should definitely hang out, asap.

[rainbowzootsuit]

The Keyser Söze level of retribution is a masterwork.

[Twirrim]

Ahh yes, the wonderful Google support team. Spend any time looking at /r/GooglePixel, or doing searches on twitter, and you'll realise that isn't an improvement at all.

When the Pixel works, it works great. If you ever have a problem though, good luck. You're in for a nightmare.

[Polylactic_acid]

I'm really disappointed with my pixel phone. The camera is partially stuffed up (seems to be a misaligned lens causing the image to be blurry) The battery life is really poor, and the usb port is loose.

These are all things I would be fine replacing myself but it seems that everyone who has tried this ends up cracking the display since the phone is glued together. Google also does not sell replacement cameras so you have to find one second hand which isn't easy or cheap.

I will never buy another google phone but I'm not really sure what my options are.

[o-__-o]

The libre purism BRICK if you don’t mind opening a shell randomly to do things throughout the day

[Polylactic_acid]

For the price of that phone I could buy 50 second hand android phones that would work much better. I also haven't seen any evidence that purism will be selling replacement parts or that parts will be available in 3+ years when they are needed.

[Causality1]

Well I would hope so, considering Pixel phones cost double or triple what Nexus phones did.

I remember when Google bought Revolv and then stabbed all their customers in the back by bricking all their home automation and then graciously offering them a discount on a new Nest home system.

Google would remotely brick pacemakers if they stood to make money off doing so and anyone who thinks they can be relied upon long term is a bloody fool.

[sgtnoodle]

Don't give them any ideas. Modern pacemakers are Bluetooth enabled...

[driverdan]

And Google is only supporting Pixel phones for two years now which sucks. The Pixel 2, for example, is still a perfectly fine phone.

[gambiting]

I'd argue Google doesn't support them at all. They don't have repair centres, they don't sell parts - if I break a screen in my OnePlus, I can send it back to OnePlus and have it replaced with a genuine part for £79 last time I checked. With Google I know someone who cracked the screen in the Pixel 4 and Google's response to it was "well, sucks to be you, we don't repair any phones at all". That's shocking, and unacceptable for any hardware product.

[scarface74]

Obligatory: Apple released a bug fix update for the 2011 iPhone 4s, June 2019

The iPhone 6s released in 2015 is still being supported at least through September 2021.

[dungdang]

that's cute. 2011 you say? you can run android 10 (current latest release) on galaxy s2. released in 2011. and it's actually usable, because screencandy has been removed to give it a perf boost. can you run ios 13.6 on your 2011 iphone 4s?

i know in the iphone world it's important how long apple updates it. in the android world that doesn't apply. the manufacturer doesn't have to. because literally anyone can, and does.

[culturestate]

> in the android world that doesn't apply. the manufacturer doesn't have to. because literally anyone can, and does.

I have two problems with this model. The first is that it really only applies to the kind of people who would be in this thread on HN - consumers at large are not updating their phones based on some community-supported Android rom.

The second is this: do we really want to train non-technical people that it's ok to let random organizations on The Internet control the operating system on their phones? These are deeply personal devices that can be relatively trivially turned into 24/7 remote surveillance stations, and say what you will about open source but with rare exception these roms are not undergoing line-by-line code audits.

In my opinion, the world is better served when companies support their own hardware.

If it turns out that Apple is spying on users, we have legal recourse. If orchiddroid928 on GitHub is doing it, that's a different ballgame.

[scarface74]

So exactly how does a normal person get Android 10 working on S2? Can they simply get an over the air upgrade directly from Samsung?

[stallmanite]

I’m all in on Apple phone-wise due to having too many Androids die on me in one year but the point about 3rd parties supporting some old hardware is very true. I have an ancient Barnes & Noble Nook tablet that I flashed with a custom rom and the thing is really snappy and responsive. The battery holds a charge and everything it’s really surprising.

[Tepix]

Can your mom without you helping her?

You can't even go to a store and ask them for help to have a custom rom installed. Plus you don't know what's inside that ROM.

[culturestate]

We probably have (at least in part) Apple’s iOS enterprise success to thank for this. No procurement manager is going to sign off on a fleet deal for 10,000 phones without some long-term support assurances.

Google seems completely uninterested in servicing that market with hardware. They could’ve absolutely dominated e.g. aerospace MRO with Glass + pixel tablets but instead most companies are just building iPad apps.

[pjmlp]

That is why support contracts exist.

Had Google been serious about the Nexus it would have made contracts that would legally bind those maker to how many years Google would see fit, and they would have to provide such support or pay compensation when not.

Google excuses only work for those that don't understand law.

[jaxn]

Google fiber support is terrible too. There is no way to transfer service to another address. Instead you have to sign up with a different Google account at the new address.

[Marsymars]

> There is zero guarantee the product and games purchased on the platform will be usable next month (exaggerating a bit) or next year.

Keep in mind that this is a conscious decision. Google could easily provide a contractual guarantee to Stadia customers.

[facorreia]

Absolutely. The fact that they choose to not provide this guarantee is a major red flag and a strong reason for me to not spend money on that platform. On the other hand, I have zero concern that my digital licenses of XBox or PlayStation games will vanish within the next couple decades.

[rlayton2]

Well, you should have a little concern. On my switch, I can buy games either digitally or physically for just about the same price. I buy most games physically, as one cannot guarantee the server that downloads games will work in 10 years (my Wii doesn't do this type of stuff now, but its less integral).

Pretty much any online game will be shut down, its just a case of when.

[smileybarry]

> as one cannot guarantee the server that downloads games will work in 10 years

While true, the pain point with Stadia is you have no downloads, for better and for worse. If Nintendo take their download servers down, you can still play all of your downloaded purchases.

On that note, I have much more faith in Nintendo's future handling of digital purchases this time around. They've put a lot more effort into the Switch's digital services compared to the Wii, which at times felt like an afterthought with the whole "WiiWare" artificial gatekeeping fiasco.

[myko]

I'm a big fan of Stadia but really can't argue against this thought process. It would be nice if Google had some way of marking products that were potentially going to be cancelled vs those that have passed the threshold and will not go away unless Google is in danger of going away completely.

Reader really looks like the breaking of a dam in hindsight.

[Osiris]

If Stadia were just a monthly subscription and you could play all the games, it wouldn't be hard to swallow because they just stop charging you when the service goes down and you got your value out of it while you had it.

It's the "purchasing" of the digital good that's the problem because you loose access to something that you think you "own" when in fact it's more of a lease.

[throwawaycuriou]

I understand the confusion around Stadia pricing tiers, but if you buy a game on the service you can play it without any monthly fee.

It's comparable to the lease you make with Valve with the expectation of Steam being around forever.

[fiblye]

There wasn’t any confusion. Their point was they’d much rather pay a monthly fee, because as it is, paying full price to “own” a Stadia game is ridiculous because Stadia is going to end up dead like most other google services and all the games you “own” will likely disappear.

[gambiting]

The problem is that Valve doesn't have a history of just cancelling their products and shutting their customers out. Google does, and an extensive one. So when they offer a service where you can buy software and said software will only work for as long as Stadia is around, I don't trust Google that service will exist in 3 years. And once it finally dies what will Google do? Give everyone AdWord vouchers?

[mech422]

Except on steam, you can install your purchases locally. So you can probably play them directly (Hmm..I should try and see)

[MengerSponge]

'member when Google threw away their innovative social network in order to break the "+" boolean search operator?

[pjmlp]

What about B̶r̶i̶l̶l̶o̶, A̶n̶d̶r̶o̶i̶d̶ ̶T̶h̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ (no news since [1])

Or A̶n̶d̶r̶o̶i̶d̶ ̶W̶e̶a̶r̶, W̶e̶a̶r̶ ̶O̶S̶ (no news since [2])

[1] - https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2019/02/an-update-...

[2] - https://blog.google/products/wear-os/investing-wear-os-ecosy...

[abnry]

I mean, do you ever doubt that Search, Gmail, or YouTube will ever get shelved? Seems like only the niche things get binned.

[dorkinspace]

Those 3 along with maps, ads, and a handful of others make up the list of "safe" Google products.

I agree with you though, it is the niche products that get shutdown. My point is that being an early adopter of Google products is a very risky move. Until a product is adopted by the masses and profitable, it should not be considered safe.

[at-fates-hands]

Back in the day, I used to be all in on the Google bandwagon. I was in on Wave, Buzz, Meebo and bunch of others. After a few years of cycling through the standard phases:

1) Wow this is really cool

2) Wow I'm starting to use this everyday

3) Wow my friends should know about

4) Google is killing this

Once you get over the idea their killing something you started to rely on and then you experience their "customer service" a few times you just wonder if its actually about trying to make the world a better place, or just adding revenue to their bottom line.

My conclusion a long time ago was not to use them for anything personal and FFS nothing I would have my business rely on.

[Izkata]

Several years later, Wave was especially disappointing to me: It was Slack, before Slack was a thing. They just didn't know how to market Wave, so no one knew why it was useful.

If Wave was first released a couple years later, with identical functionality, I think it would've done well.

[fastball]

The same problem applies though. It's not just services disappearing, it's the complete lack of support for services.

I'm in the process of moving everything off of my gmail email as I have a friend that recently lost access to their gmail account. There was no way for them to get it back – no human to speak with, no steps that they could follow to recover their account. They were supposed to be able to "sign in with an old device", but that didn't work either. Just gone. And apparently this has happened to a lot of people.

[kohtatsu]

The 3 you came up with are extremely low hanging fruit.