[MoronInAHurry]

Rachel's posts would be so much more useful if she would just say what she meant, instead of twisting everything into knots to find a way to say it backwards so she can be sarcastic and condescending while doing it.

I'm sure there's some useful information in here, but it's not worth digging through the patronization to find it.

[irrational]

Wow, I’m glad I’m not the only one that feels this way. The sheer amount of “everyone is stupid except for people like me” is astounding. I’d love to see an article on the same topic breaking down what is wrong (by showing the code) and then explaining the “right” way to do it, with code.

[zmj]

People appreciate that persona when it's presented male (the BOFH). Holding people you don't like to a higher standard is a cheap tactic.

[irrational]

What are you talking about? Male? Is the author female? I honestly have no idea who the author is. But I don’t care if the author is male or female. Condescending is condescending.

[Grimm1]

I read this as a dev war story, and as a person venting.

I would have the same condescending sarcastic attitude while doing it if I was venting too.

I also know a lot of people who like my sarcasm when talking about topics like this, so yeah as a guy who very much gets's where the author is coming from I agree this seems like a double standard.

[stickfigure]

The sarcastic and condescending tone is what makes it entertaining to read. I'm pretty sure you can find plenty of information on performance-tuning Python in IBM whitepapers, if that's what floats your boat.

[ljm]

I agree on one level, but I'm reading this as a war story, and in that case the embellishment is suitable.

I wouldn't read this if it was a tutorial and not a story.

[dmurray]

I'd read it if it was a tutorial, but I'd read it when I hit performance issues in my Python webservice and it was Google's top result for my problem - not when it hit top 10 on HN.

Statistically speaking, maybe that's the same as me not reading it at all in 90% of universes.

[gorgoiler]

It’s an interesting post to read. Have another go if you can, but I very much agree with you on the tone issue. Imagine if these were ones own notes that had to be read through the next time something like this happened. A more succinct operational — dare I say: positive! — way of writing would really be welcome.

[DevKoala]

There is a lot of literature on the subject if you want more pragmatic notes. You read Rachel’s blog not only for the tech experience, but for her storytelling skills. I particularly enjoy her blog.

[CameronNemo]

She linked none of that literature, and neither did you.

[DevKoala]

This might help you, but honestly, if you want literature that will help you arrive at the same conclusions, you should read docs.

https://medium.com/@genchilu/brief-introduction-about-the-ty...

The problem is that a solution for I/O bound workloads has become generalized as the solution for all concurrency needs when in reality, that’s just half the picture.

[kragen]

She mentioned a hell of a lot of googlable terms: epoll_wait, Apache thundering herd, EPOLLONESHOT, EAGAIN, idempotent requests, userspace threads, copy-on-write, queue depth determination, selective LIFO, strongly typed RPC, ...

[bshanks]

By the way, what is "selective LIFO"? I googled it and couldn't find it. Also, I couldn't find anything on queue depth determination.

[kragen]

It's a new term to me, but I think “selective LIFO” means switching to LIFO scheduling under overload conditions as a load-shedding measure: https://landing.google.com/sre/sre-book/chapters/addressing-...

Presumably “queue depth determination”, another new term for me, means determining how big the queue of pending requests for a service is allowed to get before further requests are refused (another load shedding measure) rather than being enqueued.

[yobert]

I would counter-argue that dry, positive, informational writing is great for Wikipedia but can also be very boring. This blog has a lot of snark and that's what makes digesting the great information so much fun!

[pdpi]

There's a middle term, and you can avoid dryness with tones other than condescension. While I always read Rachel's posts whenever they come up because they're jam packed with wisdom, I always find them a bit off-putting.

[chillingeffect]

if i could put a point on it, it would be the implied entitlement and absence of gratitude. Sure, this architecture is not 100% efficient. But step back for a moment, take a breath and consider the number of human-hours spent to get it where it is today. Consider how many people are busting their humps, many volunteers, to keep improving it. We arw not _owed_ any of this. Just the miracle of elastic server config and multicore processors... Buying into the pessimistic viewpoint is dangerous: When these issues get improved, will we feel grateful and adequate? or will we find new flaws and get snarky about them?

Anyway, what i do really like abt this post is it shows the chain of technical details across the call chain. it connects together info on dozens of man pages, etc. I also appreciate how it points out the inefficiency is quite convenient for service providers.

[eropple]

> Consider how many people are busting their humps, many volunteers, to keep improving it.

I think criticism about gratitude is strange when the author is pretty clearly coming from the standpoint that it was a bad idea to use this in the first place (and, to be fair and with regards to Python specifically, I tend towards that standpoint myself) that labor begins to look like it's being set on fire. No Purple Hearts for self-inflicted wounds and all that.

[notyourday]

Wisdom is always off-putting at the first glance. That's what makes it wisdom

[ljm]

I think she does The Daily WTF better than The Daily WTF sometimes.

[_frkl]

Totally agree, I also enjoy her posts quite a bit!

[cgriswald]

Sarcasm isn’t difficult, interesting, or particularly creative. I found this particular post very off-putting and not-at-all considerate of my time.

[spectramax]

So much fun and so little substance. Fun should be sprinkled here and there with a healthy 95% dose of substance.

Everything Rachel writes is a convoluted mess that’s impossible to follow.

[spectramax]

For the downvoters - I also do not like Paul Graham and Sam Altman - they're the same as Rachel in every way. Little substance, lots of unsubstantiated filler material.

To extend this further, I also don't like NewYorker for this reason alone - I don't have time for convoluted novel-like stories that has the important bit buried somewhere in the middle of 6 pages. If I want to read beautiful and creative prose, I need to be in that mindset. Not when discussing Python innards.

[Misdicorl]

Her posts are entertaining. They aren't intended to be technical resources even though the topics are technical. If you aren't entertained by her style, move on.

[malux85]

I agree there's been so many posts recently I've written a filter to remove them all from hacker news. Ugh.

[tomrod]

As an outsider to this space I'm loving it!

I wish she would put a review at the end of sources / main concepts so I can learn more.

[sjburt]

She recently posted about which of her posts were most referenced by others, which caused all of those posts to be resubmitted despite being years old.

This one, at least, is new.

[dmurray]

I would say it's a bad post because the conclusion is wrong.

According to the post, "the thing" with Python/Gunicorn/Gevent is it's less performant than one would like in some circumstances, and a lazy developer might tell you you need to 'set your system to "elastically scale up" at some pitiful utilization level, like 25-30% of the entire machine'.

That's probably true! But not that helpful if you don't say what those circumstances are. There are many circumstances where Python is appropriate for a web service, and many circumstances where green threads work just fine. Tell me when I need to consider using the more complicated solution, don't tell me the simpler solution is always useless and doomed from the start.

[scubbo]

I'm really glad to see this as the top comment. I came back to comments after reading halfway to see if I was the only one struggling to extract any meaningful point from this.

[jasonhansel]

Honestly, I really like her writing style! The content would sound dry and technical otherwise; the sarcasm makes it more engaging.

[dws]

I enjoy the story. It's a chance to reconnect with past times when those same things happened to me or someone on my team.

[kragen]

On the contrary, I've written web services in Python and I found her snark highly entertaining, as usual.

[EamonnMR]

Would you say the same thing about Linus's rants?

[walshemj]

Not the same random swearing directly from someone in a leadership role is not the same.

And jeez what do you make of the BOFH if Rachels style upsets you.

[EamonnMR]

This author's style is 10x less abrasive, I was pointing out that Linus's rants are generally appreciated. Other posters did it better though.

[walshemj]

I didn't find it Patronising it maybe those with ESL English as a second language with more formal usage and more stratified might not be as comfortable with it

[jwlake]

It actually alot of background on why it doesn't work. The post could just be:

tl;dr: gunicorn doesn't know how to multiplex listeners and green threads will ruin your request latency.

The thing is, that post isn't very useful nor interesting. The point here is that the "simple" python architecture doesnt scale well at all so you might not want to use it if you're planning on scaling ever.

[DoreenMichele]

My feeling is that if you really wanted the author to improve, you would try to connect personally, establish trust and then talk to them privately about ways you feel they could improve their writing. And maybe you aren't comfortable reaching out privately because it's a woman, so that could go sideways (assuming you are male, which I don't actually know). Let me assure you that if you have good intentions, publicly dogging someone because you aren't comfortable reaching out privately is not a good substitute.

Seeing this comment at the top of the page on the highest ranked post on the HN front page for the only woman programmer that I am personally aware of who regularly makes the front page really feels like a kick in the gut and looks like sexist garbage. And I would like to think better of HN than that.

[nostrademons]

This is the Internet, where you take whatever feedback you get with the appropriate grain of salt and either choose to improve or not. Most people on the public venues on the Internet - forums, blogs, comments, essays - are not looking to build relationships or establish trust. (There are some exceptions - I've made some great friendships with Internet friends - but they're usually more private niche forums than blogs or other publications with a wide readership.) They're looking to get their opinion out there, build a readership, perhaps influence public discourse, and maybe get some feedback on their ideas.

I've seen similar comments leveled at PG [1] and Zed Shaw [2], so I don't think it's just sexism.

[1] https://idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9275526

[Misdicorl]

Note that both your examples are

a) criticising content rather than delivery/tone

b) not the primary conversation around these two authors

Look to Linus Torvalds for a male example where delivery rather than content is often the primary conversation. That is how egregious the delivery must be for a male to get the tone police called on them

[nostrademons]

You may have something there. I went looking for the HN comments on Dabblers and Blowhards [1] (which, IMHO, is even more egregiously sanctimonious than Rachel's essay), but the top comment there was responding to content rather than tone. Only the 3 bottom-most comments remarked on tone.

I don't consider Linus Torvalds that vitriolic, BTW. Most of the time when he's angry he's trying to make a point. I think of Erik Naggum [2] or Poul Henning-Kemp when it comes to real vitriol on the Internet.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=238325

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1472002

[asveikau]

People have valid criticisms of Linus's delivery, but the content is often good. I tend to remember some of the technical arguments in those rants years after the fact, and cite them.

Keep in mind he did create the Linux kernel and git, so even if he delivers them inexpertly, even on a bad day, he has some technical insight.

All that said: I agree there is some gender bias showing up on this thread.

[Misdicorl]

Oh, of course! If Linus wasn't special nobody would tolerate his style. Women have to be special for society to tolerate sarcasm from them. I'm unsure how old I'll be before a woman like Linus will be recognized rather than shoved aside.

[DoreenMichele]

Thank you for your many excellent comments in this discussion. You fought the good fight. You basically won in that this thread long ago ceased being at the top of the page.

Take your winnings and go home. Linus is not above social censure. His team reined him in not hugely long ago and the comment you are hissing at agrees with your larger point that there's some gender bias happening here and was uncommonly reasonable and evenhanded. I upvoted it.

I'm trying to be supportive. I'm trying to tell you "You've done enough. Relax. Take a break. Feel okay about how this went down."

I mean if your mom is dying of cancer or something and screaming at internet strangers is good distraction from more serious problems, cool. Don't let me stop you.

But if the point was "Doreen is right: this thread shouldn't be at the top of the page!" well, it's not anymore. Job well done. Have a cold brew or whatever and feel okay about it.

[DoreenMichele]

If you really want to shut me down and make me look like an absolute fool, you could list off the ten other women programmers who routinely hit the front page of HN that silly, pathetic little ole me completely missed.

I'm not getting into this argument about how it's not sexism because (bs example pretending men and women get treated exactly alike when everyone knows that's absolutely not true).

[neonate]

I don't know about 10, but 3 that come to mind right away are Julia Evans, Jessie Frazelle, and Windytan.

(Not disagreeing with you! I just thought it was an interesting question.)

[diebeforei485]

It's not about "wanting the author to improve". People are free to write on their own personal blog with as much snark as they like, in whatever style they prefer.

However, what seems to have happened here is that a bunch of folks are upvoting this link to the top of HN because of who the author is.

Meanwhile, other HN readers find this particular post to be a waste of time because, frankly, the content of the post itself is not particularly interesting or useful for most HN readers. Other posts[1][2] by this author have been much better suited for the top of HN, for example

[1] https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2018/04/23/pace/ [2] https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2019/11/18/oldbash/

[Rapzid]

I think that kinda hits the nail on the head. For a lot of people on HN the information being presented in the posts isn't new or particularly insightful. So to read the information presented in a tone where the author believes they are the only ones with the "true knowledge" can be very off-putting.

But of course there are other people that may get more out of it and not have a negative reaction to it.

[losteric]

I agree that the previous post was not constructive or effective, but there's nothing sexist about what they said. It's just someone broadcasting critical opinion.

[tqkxzugoaupvwqr]

How is this sexist? Treating the author differently based on sex is garbage. A male author would receive exactly the same public treatment.

[Misdicorl]

Policing tone is far more prevalent when the speaker is a woman. Perhaps (I'm doubtful) this feedback would be given to a very well known male speaker, but it would not have been the top comment here.

[hombre_fatal]

Criticism is a staple of any human discussion/forum. It's not even feedback, it's just complaining about TFA. Sometimes the top comment on HN is someone complaining about the font-color of the blog post. Let's not lose our minds here.

Seems weird to get worked up over spotting a complaint on HN just because a woman wrote TFA. And btw, most complaints on HN are leveled at men simply because men populate this forum and tech more than women. Does that mean this forum hate men? Why is it assumed men can handle it but women can't?

I have to wonder how many women are turned off by the idea that they need to be babied like this and can't take generic online criticism. Or the suggestion that criticism was only leveled at them because they are women. It sure reeks, to me.

[Misdicorl]

The type of criticism matters. A lot. It's not about babying women. It's about pointing out different standards for different speakers.

[hombre_fatal]

Having different standards for different speakers is exactly what you're doing.

Criticizing how a message is delivered is standard HN criticism. Especially the sort of "everyone is smart except for me" tone of TFA. I myself criticize commenters here for that as it's something I can't stand, either.

Why would you think it's something we only see leveled at women here? And, according to what? And, yes, you're then infantilizing women when OP does receive that criticism. I think your heart is in the right place, but you're doing exactly what you think you're condemning.

[type0]

It's a good rant, but it's still a rant. Don't make it to something it's not, plenty of rants get harsher critiques and or don't receive that much up-votes.

[debaserab2]

There are few blog posts that make it to the front page of hacker news that don't draw sharp criticism in the comments and that criticism is quite often the top comment.

[Misdicorl]

And it is also usually focused on content

[debaserab2]

If only that were true

[wisty]

How robust is this? Remember that time when Clinton and Trump's debates were reenacted by gender-swapped actors?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/29/clinton-trum...

> “When a woman says it, it doesn’t sound as crazy,” said Maria Guadalupe, a professor at France’s INSEAD Business school and a co-creator with Joe Salvatore, clinical associate professor of educational theatre at New York University’s Steinhardt School, of the play.

Hmmm.

Is your conclusion based on actors reading off lines, or real life tone policing?

Maybe if it's a "natural experiment" it could be that women know they'll be held to a more tolerant standard (by most people) so they can get away with being a bit ruder. Or maybe they don't know the standard is more tolerant for women (they might even think they're being oppressed) but know where the line is where a crowd will turn against them (like most people do), and that line happens to allow them to be a little ruder.

[Misdicorl]

Interesting experiment! I wasn't aware of it. I think it's difficult to extrapolate results, but I definitely have different takeaways than you.

1) The smiling aspect is explained (for me) by society pushing women to constantly smile, but not men. The amount we expect men and women to smile is different and when they violate those norms they're either a bitch (women for too little) or fake (men for too much).

I'm not sure how to interpret the tone aspect, and it's super interesting! It definitely flies in the face of multitudes of studies showing the reverse. I'm inclined to believe the studies which are really quite simple e.g. have people grade a short essay where the only difference between groups is the essay author's name.

[bluntfang]

I'd be interesting to get the sentiment on Torvold's history of blog posts that make hacker news. Willing to bet my paycheck that his sarcastic and ranty tone was loved.

[toxik]

Otoh she isn’t him, he’s famous.

[defterGoose]

What you're saying with this post and the one below is that criticizing a woman (even in a situation where women are underrepresented) is sexist. This is obviously not true and if you believe the criticism is unwarranted then you should make your own criticism based on those points.

[DoreenMichele]

That's not what I'm saying at all and it's dumbfounding to me that I am getting such a pile on to try to shut me up by probably all men trying to claim there's no sexism here. My framing actually assumes positive intent gone wrong and suggests that if there is positive intent, this is not a best practice.

Entire audience hears "Some whiny bitch reading in sexism where there is none and that needs to be shut down cuz reasons."

And therein lies the problem.

But I promised myself I wasn't going to be dragged into some shitshow. I knew no matter how carefully I worded it, it was likely to get ugly pushback and not get good faith engagement.

So I'm out of here. Thanks.

[irrational]

Wow. You really had to go there with the sexism, didn’t you?

[blast]

DoreenMichele is actually much less ideological than most. Maybe it's not obvious from this thread, but those of us who have read her in that past know that her thoughts on these topics are actually unpredictable (and in particular, not at all anti-men). That's quite unusual. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt.

[dmurray]

Much less ideological than most what? Most women who call attention to them being women on the Internet? Or just most people who post interesting technical stuff online?

[blast]

Than most people who comment about gender issues on the internet. I find that once you have a few bits of information, you can nearly always predict where someone is going to come down on such matters. It's not common to run into someone who's less predictable that way.

[Misdicorl]

Wholeheartedly agree with this. I expected to see the parent comment, but I'm really sad to see it at the top. Of course that's not the commenters fault per se; it's clearly a very common opinion people are happy/eager to communicate rather than be ashamed of (even if so mildly as to prefer not to have it in their upvote collection).