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by thresh 2345 days ago
So they'll just convert the lower altitude resorts to more "summer" activities like hiking and mountain biking.
9 comments

No, they will use snow canons and artificial snow as long as they can and will do everything they can to deny that this is happening. That is pretty much what you could observe there for many years.

(Though admittedly "just" convert to summer activities sounds much easier than it is. Skiing was something that was always confined to few areas, you can hike just as well in many more places.)

It's not necessarily denial, just trying to continue their business model. I use air conditioning to keep working when it's hot, doesn't mean I'm pretending it's cool.
The temps need to be below freezing for snow making to work.

One can easily see the changes over last 20 years by looking at the ski mountains on the East Coast. The skiing season now is late January to mid-April.

So, no climate skepticism here, but I'll push back on the idea that (to date) things have changed that drastically on the East Coast (USA). East Coast skiing has always been a pretty marginal operation, especially when we aren't talking the most northern/high elevation places.

There were numerous years in the pre-snowmaking era where large numbers of East Coast ski areas barely operated.

Repeated bad years for natural snow in the late 70s/early 80s drove a ton of smaller places into closing down.

And there's all kinds of old pictures of the crazy things attempted to save snow before they could make it. Fences to try to catch it from blowing into the woods, giant vacuums to try to get it from the woods and put it on the trails, etc. Whole crews out in summer picking up every small rock and stump so they could open trails with as few inches of snow as possible.

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And back then, conditions were expected to be poor a lot of the time. Skiers today expect wall to wall snow on the runs and a large portion of them to be open just about every day during the main season.

I was going to say exactly this but have to admit being put off by the potential for downvotes.

Hell, I grew up in central Alberta, 1970s and 80s. Latitude 53. Winter time temperatures drop to the -30C range all the time. And yet even there you could not rely on consistent snow cover at the little hills around. Many Christmases well above zero with the lake unfrozen followed by a January of -25C.

Back then the little hills around there were also all closing because people were now able to drive or fly further and go to Jasper and Banff etc. to ski instead of hitting their local hills. And I also remember many days skiing on solid ice in Jasper, which is pretty damned cold, high elevation.

Most of North America is a continental climate. It has always been highly variable. It is getting more so.

Climate change is real and is impacting this industry, but I feel like the really bad effects are still coming. But even when it comes it's not like the winters will be universally _warm_ -- they will be highly volatile, with intense blizzards one day followed by rain later. That's the pattern this year already.

I'm off to Revelstoke to ski in a week and a half. Absolute craploads of snow there this year, while here in the east it has been awful. But last year it wasn't that great out there but was pretty good in the east, considering.

I think I generally agree with you there.

But I don't expect to be seeing ski areas becoming generally untenable operations in the Eastern US until many decades in the future, other than maybe some of the southernmost areas (there's ski areas as far south as Alabama).

Average conditions may be more variable and resorts will have to push even harder in snowmaking windows.

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On the other hand though, there's quite a bit of technological advancement still coming down the pipe on the snowmaking side. In some respects, Eastern US conditions are (for now) arguably improved from what they used to be for many as a result.

The massive automation coming to the industry is making it possible to make a lot more snow and take advantage of small weather windows, and the efficiency improvements have made the energy costs a lot less prohibitive to use extensively (and less environmentally problematic).

If you go back to the early 20th century, several Vermont resorts were forced to close due to too much snow.

The problem with East coast skiing is that it won’t take that much more warming to make them economically unviable.

No, one can now produce snow in ambient temperatures up to 25C. It gets a bit slushy, though, but when the snow heap is big enough it gets almost self sustained. It just costs a lot and is not environmentally friendly to use so much power to cool down the water in the snow cannons.

Locally they are experimenting on heat pump technology, and to use the excess heat to something useful. Then it might be more viable. Probably cannot do it in too high temperatures, but a bit above freezing should work.

Here, they have also experimented on building a gigantic heap of snow at the end of the season, and covering it so it doesn't melt too much during summer. Then it's easier to lay artificial snow on top in the fall, or the natural snow that occurs doesn't just melt when hitting the ground.

If your ambient temperature is 25C, then your ground temperature is going to be way too high. It is simply not possible to cover 4-5 mile runs with 10" base at above freezing and keep it there for 3-4 months. Even if you do, first rain is going to chew through your base, not to mention the totally regular damage from skiers and snowboarders.
Ground temp might not be that high if you're just talking about daily swings, which is how things have been going here in the east. Brutal cold followed by swings well above zero and rain.
Unless you're Killington with the most insane snow making system in North America, capable of opening in October and closing in May.
They did a ski worldcup on artificial snow in Dresden recently when it was 10 degree.

The snow was delivered via trucks.

Sure, if one is to spend millions of dollars it is possible. It is just not financially possible to do a multi-months season via snow delivery. It is even painful with snow guns.
Austria can confirm
Mountain biking is already on a huge uptick across the world, convenient timing I guess. As an avid rider, to use the terminology, I'm super stoked. We didn't previously have "bike parks" in Australia, but now we have a bunch. With a few lift access bike parks being developed on the ski resorts.

However, a fairly bitter pill to swallow this year was some parks I was looking forward to riding being caught in the Australian bushfires. One was a local park, and I look forward to helping rebuild it once it's safe.

It's a scary prospect for that to become the norm. Nature is dear to me. Being able to go riding in the forest is a pillar of my health, mental and physical. I have consistently been unable to ride this summer due to heatwaves and bushfire smoke. Occasionally I would make poor judgement, and leave to ride when it was clear only to be smoked out on the trails an hour later, from fires hundreds of kilometers away.

I prefer not to go to skiing areas for hiking. It’s usually quite boring with all the destroyed/missing vegetation where the ski trails are.
Currently in Slovenia (high ski season) there are several low altitude resorts that still have their bike trails open instead of having a ski run on the same piste. They can't even produce artificial snow because temperatures are so high.
When we were kids, we used to ski on local hills many times, never going to a resort.
They are already trying that, with various success. So summer as income is +- covered these days and can improve only by little, but almost nobody ain't gonna hike or bike in winter through former ski resort area, with +5/+10 degrees Celzius.

Skiing is simply more unique/exquisite experience, more people are willing to spend more. It also often requires less effort, if one is not so fit. Plenty of folks ride down 2 times in the morning, park with beer/wine on the sun, eat, do 1-2 runs and call it a day and go to apres bar. For whole week.

I am a bit skeptical about this 'reinventing' of ski resorts into something new. I look at Chamonix in France, for somebody like me the best mountain place in Europe, maybe even globally. Beautiful hiking, trail running, climbing, world class (or easy) alpinism available quickly, skiing, ski touring, paraglide, bikes and so on and on. The best season for non-winter activities is actually early autumn, September-October - better temperatures than summer, nature is stunningly beautiful, good stable weather.

But almost nobody comes in autumn. Why? Because kids don't have holidays and are back to school. This is the bulk of visitors in mountains, anytime. So summer season for tourism lasts 2-2.5 months. Winter one, still is more like 4 months.

Those activities don't make nearly as much money as skiing. There are a whole lot of places that are great for mountain biking and hiking, but very few locations with the elevation and precipitation required to support a good ski resort.

Somewhat paradoxically, climate change could make some areas of the Rockies and Sierras more snowy. But depletion of snow in other areas would cause the areas with snow to become even more expensive -- and they're already pretty exclusive today.

Even the bloomberg article states:

> Already, the summer generates 60% of the tourism intake, according to Garmisch Mayor Sigrid Meierhofer.

Indeed, hiking doesnt require you to spend moneys on rental equipment. It's a bit different for mountain biking - most of the time you need lift passes to enjoy the mountain. And with the explosion of electric bikes rentals in the last years, and there are lots of growth opportunities for generating revenue there as well.

And it's not only about hiking/biking, of course.

Of course, having more places to ski is better than having less places - my main concern is people and their jobs, and not specific resort activities per se.

> activities like hiking and mountain biking

While I would love to see more bike parks, I think most mountain resorts would shutter if these were the only activities bringing in revenue throughout the year.

Of course people will adapt, but there is also a cultural loss here.
The cultural loss of not building a space station on every hill ..
I don't think there's much culture lost in moving a few ski lifts to a higher altitude place.
Out here in the East, the ski hills are often already in the highest altitude spots for hundreds of miles around.
Ostentatious, wasteful winter sports are easily the least of my worries here.
Sure, I get that. But my bigger point isn't so much about Alpine skiing. To say simply that people will adapt to new climates belies the loss that people experience with the destruction of their home landscapes and ecosystems. In understanding this, I find the concept of solastalgia to be useful.

From Wikipedia: "Solastalgia (/ˌsɒləˈstældʒə/) is a neologism that describes a form of mental or existential distress caused by environmental change. In many cases this is in reference to global climate change, but more localized events such as volcanic eruptions, drought or destructive mining techniques can cause solastalgia as well."

There is also an arrogance that the past 120 years represents how geological earth should have remained forever.
Forever? Nah, but I’d prefer if things changed at the usual pace - slow enough for species to adapt and evolve without catastrophic extinctions.
> Nah, but I’d prefer if things changed at the usual pace - slow enough for species to adapt and evolve without catastrophic extinctions.

Why do you think that evolution happens like that? Extinction events are a major driver in evolution, and as far as I know, Punctuated Equilibrium Theory still has quite a bit of traction; many models (especially simulations) seem to show that this is what quite often happens.

Well, it doesn’t always, but I’d prefer not to live during the equivalent of a self imposed asteroid impact kthxbye.

Like, sure, mass extinctions happen... but this one is totally optional.

I don't think having to find a new ski resort is catastrophic. People have only been going to ski resorts for 100 years
>I don't think having to find a new ski resort is catastrophic.

As if the worst thing is the loss of ski resorts?

How about going finding a new place to live, cultivate, and the huge casualties in human life, animals, etc?

Ironically skiresorts aren't a haven of biodiversity
“I’m really bummed about the way it makes my arm look” said the stage 4 terminal skin cancer patient.

Hint: it’s not actually about the skiing.

Who the F cares how earth should look geologically. I want earth to stay habitable for humans. If earth wants to boil in greenhouses natural we should do everything possible to stop this natural process.
I think it's simple. Some people don't have climate change problems affect them and lack human empathy.

For them the problem is something they read about - not something real.

If they lived in one of the directly affected areas from climate change, and suffered the consequences, they'd change the tune regarding "why expect earth to look like this geologically", etc.

The current benchmark for climate change problems is "were things different 10-15 years ago".

Yea, things have always changed. It's why weather stable regions are historically more habitable than those which aren't.

>The current benchmark for climate change problems is "were things different 10-15 years ago".

Only if one has their head in the sand. Historically higher temperatures year after year, massive loss of arctic ice, etc.

All of those things weren't "always changing", except if you go back to thousands to millions of years. And even then, they didn't get there with the same rate of change we have now.

Because it was very different in the past 2000 years?
Meh, they can use snow cannons. And waste a lot and lot of electricity in the process.