[missosoup]

Not necessarily.

Regulatory capture is a thing. Regulators, at least in part, exist to maintain a barrier to entry for any new players trying to enter a field dominated by large players.

Several major tech companies only exist because they broke rules in their early days. And most people agree the outcome was a net benefit to society.

[bathtub365]

As someone who drives on public roads (and has family and friends who drive on public roads) this is a frightening comparison and attitude.

[o-__-o]

Next time you drive, look around you at some of the other drivers. The ones with cell phones in their hands are more dangerous than someone with a comma.ai dev kit.

Fun story: I wanted to build a hypermilling coach/trainer system about 10 years ago and got to the point of having a poor mans ACC in a Scion. It didn’t brake though, only coasted to lose speed (thus requiring driver input). So I got the wild idea of tapping into the electronic brake distribution system to apply brake pressure when I needed to slow down. I figured out the system and was ready to tap into it when I had a dream that night. I was on the highway and all of a sudden two wheels decided to lock up from braking too hard. I stopped all testing on that car on public roadways after that.

My current car is hacked to provide lane centering when lane assist is on, but it’s still operating within the bounds of the factory electronic steering (so it can’t self drive/make 90 degree turns)

[bathtub365]

I agree, both cell phone drivers and people with unlicensed, untested, unregulated homebrew self-driving setups are dangers to everyone around them.

[sokoloff]

As are people with 15 year old rusted hoopties, drivers who had a fight with their significant other, disagreement with a colleague or whose sports team just lost, drivers who slept poorly the last few nights, drivers who are ill and taking cold medicine, cars with lamps out, worn tires, worn ball joints, bad shocks, no ABS, no vehicle stability control, etc.

I’m okay with enthusiasts repairing and modifying their cars and driving them on public roads, because I’d rather have that than a world where only certified cars, maintained at certified dealers, using only certified parts are permitted on the roads.

Maybe you're not a "car person". Apply the same principles to whatever field you have passion for. Only certified Intel parts may be added by Intel technicians to Intel computers, which must run only certified operating systems. Or only certified Edison lightbulbs may be added to certified Edison light fixtures by certified Edison technicians. Only certified firmware may be run on devices you're being allowed to rent from the certified manufacturer.

[bathtub365]

I agree, driving is dangerous. Why is the response to add another dangerous hazard? This argument is ridiculous.

[sokoloff]

Do you have evidence to support the hypothesis that cars equipped with aftermarket equipment are in general or with this specific system are more dangerous? Do you think such evidence should exist/be considered prior to banning a potential device?

The reason I ask is because there is a general topic of whether we should preemptively block new technology based on hypotheses, whether we should seek supporting evidence, or whether we should wait for confirming data before blocking freedoms to experiment. Said differently, do we ban everything until “proven” safe, allow everything until “proven” unsafe, or something in middle.

[chris11]

> but it’s still operating within the bounds of the factory electronic steering

That's Comma AI's approach. Their hardware spoofs the stock computer so it can send commands to the car's active safety systems. So there are some stock limitations, like the steering torque, that openpilot doesn't bypass.

[bathtub365]

This doesn't address the fundamental issue: a car is being controlled by an untested and unregulated system on public roads.

[taneq]

That's true, but how much oversight is really applied to the existing software systems on modern vehicles? Did national regulators review the design and coding on the electronic stability controls? I doubt it. Is the CAN bridge between the entertainment system and the critical systems bus (with ABS, ESC, power steering etc.) suitably hardened to protect against hackers (hint: no.) Who has reviewed the electrically assisted power steering?

Most things in a modern car are controlled by software that's far more opaque than OpenPilot. Don't get me wrong, a lot of their software and hardware architecture choices scare the heck out of me, but at least it's transparent.

[Aeolun]

That could be a way to describe all human drivers :P

[DesolationJones]

I'm not sure what testing a regulator can do today that's more rigorous than the 10.5 million miles already driven by Open Pilot equipped cars.

[bathtub365]

It isn't being done by anyone the company is liable for

[missosoup]

You're already driving on roads shared with garbage solution like tesla's '''autopilot''' this thing is no different other than the creators not being able to afford the regulatory bribe to deploy it.

[bathtub365]

It's a completely different product with a much wider number of configurations that end-users have to piece together from Wiki pages and packages they download themselves, loaded onto hardware they've installed in their cars with zero oversight from anyone qualified.

[missosoup]

> end-users have to piece together from Wiki pages and packages they download themselves

Which makes it a ton safer than '''autopilot''' because by the time those users are done installing it they have a pretty clear understanding of its capabilities and limitations.

vs. the endless videos of morons driving tesla in '''autopilot''' mode with hands off the wheel because it's an incomprehensible black box of magical self-driving capability for them.

The regulator hasn't stopped tesla autopilot from causing accidents. It's just a competitive moat.

[cyc116]

It doesn't take a 5 year ML PHD and millions of simulation miles to download and install packages.

[missosoup]

And yet all of those resources have amounted to what all regulators agree is a SAE level 2 system, only qualified for hands-on lane-keeping assist, exactly like you'll find on a modern Mazda or any other number of cars without any of that hardware or ML PHDs.

Sort of proving the point that the resource pool of the incumbent doesn't necessarily translate to the value of the product.

[slg]

Comma is bragging about 6 million miles drive. Tesla's Autopilot has over 2 billion miles driven. This has two cameras (EDIT: and apparently 1 radar that already exists in the vehicle). Tesla's has 12 cameras, 12 sonars, and 1 radar. This is backed by a company that apparently has received $8 million in funding. Autopilot is backed by a company with a market cap of $84 billion. You are welcome to your opinion of Tesla's product, but if that is garbage, I can't image the word you should use to describe this because the two products are in no way comparable.

[missosoup]

You're listing specs which are a proxy for how much money the incumbent has, and saying that the regulatory barrier should be set at those specs for some reason.

None of those specs give any indication to the relative safety of the two systems though. And this is exactly what incumbents want. They want a small player to have to match their massive cash holdings to enter their market, even if the small player has a better product.

Here's some food for though: Tesla has been slapped with multiple lawsuits for misleading advertising of Autopilot. Regulators all agree that Autopilot is just an SAE level 2 system, same like those found on much cheaper cars with far less hardware and none of the marketing oversell.

[slg]

I listed miles driven. That is a direct indicator of safety.

I also listed the number and type of inputs each system has. This might correlate with money, but it clearly also correlates with safety. One simple example, it is impossible for the Comma system to have 360 degree visual coverage of what is around you with just two cameras in the locations they are in.

[DesolationJones]

Tesla does not use 12 cameras for autopilot. It just uses radar and 1 or 2 of the front facing cameras depending on the version. Not really different from OpenPIlot.

[missosoup]

You're making a lot of really wild assumptions about what correlates with safety without a shred of evidence to back it up.

Humans have two eyes, a pretty narrow field of view, no radar, no sonar. By your logic they're even worse, yet theyre so much better than Autopilot that it's unattainable for it to match.

[taneq]

I haven't seen any videos of OpenPilot vehicles swerving towards gore points or ploughing into stopped vehicles, though.

[jjuel]

You are already sharing a road with people who are constantly distracted, drunk, or other. I would say the roads would be a much better place if there were more people who had a computer driving them.

[Marazan]

Uber is not a tech company, it is a mini cab firm

Air BnB is not a tech company, it is in the holiday let's game.