[o-__-o]

Next time you drive, look around you at some of the other drivers. The ones with cell phones in their hands are more dangerous than someone with a comma.ai dev kit.

Fun story: I wanted to build a hypermilling coach/trainer system about 10 years ago and got to the point of having a poor mans ACC in a Scion. It didn’t brake though, only coasted to lose speed (thus requiring driver input). So I got the wild idea of tapping into the electronic brake distribution system to apply brake pressure when I needed to slow down. I figured out the system and was ready to tap into it when I had a dream that night. I was on the highway and all of a sudden two wheels decided to lock up from braking too hard. I stopped all testing on that car on public roadways after that.

My current car is hacked to provide lane centering when lane assist is on, but it’s still operating within the bounds of the factory electronic steering (so it can’t self drive/make 90 degree turns)

[bathtub365]

I agree, both cell phone drivers and people with unlicensed, untested, unregulated homebrew self-driving setups are dangers to everyone around them.

[sokoloff]

As are people with 15 year old rusted hoopties, drivers who had a fight with their significant other, disagreement with a colleague or whose sports team just lost, drivers who slept poorly the last few nights, drivers who are ill and taking cold medicine, cars with lamps out, worn tires, worn ball joints, bad shocks, no ABS, no vehicle stability control, etc.

I’m okay with enthusiasts repairing and modifying their cars and driving them on public roads, because I’d rather have that than a world where only certified cars, maintained at certified dealers, using only certified parts are permitted on the roads.

Maybe you're not a "car person". Apply the same principles to whatever field you have passion for. Only certified Intel parts may be added by Intel technicians to Intel computers, which must run only certified operating systems. Or only certified Edison lightbulbs may be added to certified Edison light fixtures by certified Edison technicians. Only certified firmware may be run on devices you're being allowed to rent from the certified manufacturer.

[bathtub365]

I agree, driving is dangerous. Why is the response to add another dangerous hazard? This argument is ridiculous.

[sokoloff]

Do you have evidence to support the hypothesis that cars equipped with aftermarket equipment are in general or with this specific system are more dangerous? Do you think such evidence should exist/be considered prior to banning a potential device?

The reason I ask is because there is a general topic of whether we should preemptively block new technology based on hypotheses, whether we should seek supporting evidence, or whether we should wait for confirming data before blocking freedoms to experiment. Said differently, do we ban everything until “proven” safe, allow everything until “proven” unsafe, or something in middle.

[bathtub365]

Experimentation using heavy equipment that has been modified with unlicensed and untested hardware and software designed to radically change its behaviour, in close proximity to people who haven’t consented to the experiment, should be illegal.

[chris11]

> but it’s still operating within the bounds of the factory electronic steering

That's Comma AI's approach. Their hardware spoofs the stock computer so it can send commands to the car's active safety systems. So there are some stock limitations, like the steering torque, that openpilot doesn't bypass.

[bathtub365]

This doesn't address the fundamental issue: a car is being controlled by an untested and unregulated system on public roads.

[taneq]

That's true, but how much oversight is really applied to the existing software systems on modern vehicles? Did national regulators review the design and coding on the electronic stability controls? I doubt it. Is the CAN bridge between the entertainment system and the critical systems bus (with ABS, ESC, power steering etc.) suitably hardened to protect against hackers (hint: no.) Who has reviewed the electrically assisted power steering?

Most things in a modern car are controlled by software that's far more opaque than OpenPilot. Don't get me wrong, a lot of their software and hardware architecture choices scare the heck out of me, but at least it's transparent.

[Aeolun]

That could be a way to describe all human drivers :P

[DesolationJones]

I'm not sure what testing a regulator can do today that's more rigorous than the 10.5 million miles already driven by Open Pilot equipped cars.

[bathtub365]

It isn't being done by anyone the company is liable for

[o-__-o]

If Linux caused your house to burn down, who would be liable?

(Hint: I hope you have good insurance)