[generalpass]

> I think men have no idea that girls and women experience this.

This is generally true in both directions. While I have never experienced sexual harassment, I do experience nothing. As in, no woman (online) initiates contact with me. Every woman apparently initiating contact is a scammer and likely not actually a woman.

[foxylad]

Possibly reading the wrong thing between the lines,but if anyone expects women to initiate relationships online, they're going to be very disappointed. For women, the risk\reward equation is astronomically biased against them.

If you're looking for a relationship, look offline. And not in pick-up joints - take any interests you have and make them sociable, invest in social gatherings with people your own age (anyone younger than a couple of years is going to think you're a creep), and tell women you find attractive that you find them attractive subtly, and don't be childish if they knock you back.

[fiter]

I always thought the benefit of online dating is to avoid the need to muck up friendship activities with finding a partner. Like, don't people not want to be propositioned just because they like f.e. table tennis?

[jimmaswell]

> the risk\reward equation is astronomically biased against them

...what? An almost guaranteed date for a minimum of effort is a bad risk/reward how exactly? I suppose it is a little more effort than just replying to one of the 1000 messages in their inbox.

[farazbabar]

The risk of falling prey to a charming or good looking predator?

[bradlys]

Idk, lots of sexual assaulters exist in the offline world. In the social dancing scene, you can meet lots of charming men who will push your boundaries beyond comfort and some will rape. Heard dozens of stories for just the scenes I'm involved in. And you'd think it happens once and then the dude is gone, nope. They stay around for 20 years raping people. And it's very frequently the people leading the community.

I'd love to hear if online dating is statistically riskier than offline but duck duck go isn't helping me much here.

[Ewigkeit]

This is excellent advice.

[jancsika]

> This is generally true in both directions. While I have never experienced sexual harassment, I do experience nothing.

I'm trying to make sense of this comment and am drawing a complete blank.

Seems to me that zero unwanted online sexual advances from creepers of the opposite sex would be an example of "winning", not an example of "men have it bad, too."

As a guy who wishes he'd had zero unwanted online sexual advances from creepers, what am I missing here?

[generalpass]

> I'm trying to make sense of this comment and am drawing a complete blank.

> Seems to me that zero unwanted online sexual advances from creepers of the opposite sex would be an example of "winning", not an example of "men have it bad, too."

You may be struggling to make sense of this by inserting some sort of "who is winning and who is losing" query. I'm not positing winning, losing, better, or worse for anyone. I'm stating that men and women have different online experiences and most are not aware that the other has a different experience.

> As a guy who wishes he'd had zero unwanted online sexual advances from creepers, what am I missing here?

Okay, so non-zero over what time-frame?

Without meeting IRL, is there any way for you to determine if these "creepers" are scammers? You may find they are nearly all scammers if probe even just a little.

You may have something in your profile most men do not have, making you a more attractive target, because, really, HN is full of men and although this is a really poor survey, you are so far the only person stating you experience elsewise.

I would be curious to hear if you receive initial contact from non-"creeper" women. Women also receive non-harassing contact from men, whereas men generally don't receive any.

[peterwwillis]

It's not "true in both directions" because one of those "directions" is a lifelong experience of harassment and intimidation and the other "direction" is nobody wants to seek you out to have sex with you.

[jimmaswell]

So men just want sex? None of these men are grappling with loneliness and feeling unvalued getting nothing but radio silence trying to reach out to potential partners? Having the pressure of having to work out, get a high paying job, etc. just in order to try to increase their chances of not dying alone?

A tired, sexist attitude.

[peterwwillis]

It's about sex, but it's also about entitlement. These men you're talking about believe that it's somehow unfair that they get "radio silence" when they "reach out". I'm sure they feel bad, but nobody victimized them. They're just insecure.

And, heh, hoooooo boy, yeah, let's talk about pressure. Let me tell you, as a man, I am pressured constantly to look good. All the makeup I put on every day, all the different outfits I own. All the work I have to do on my butt and abs, all the crazy crash diets I've gone on to try to slim down, the sheer amount of money I spend on my hair... You're right, it really is unfair how society pressures me, a cis man, to constantly look good and make lots of money, in order to be treated as a person.

[jimmaswell]

I know lots of women that don't do any of those things and get "treated as a person" perfectly fine. None of that is remotely necessary to get dates as a woman. Including weight, lots of guys like heavier girls but it's practically a death sentence for men.

If you really think lonely people are just victimizing themselves then you need to make a better attempt at having empathy skills. It /is/ grossly unfair having to live like that. Unfair having to get catcalled too but as I said in another comment I'd have picked that over what my life had to be like in an instant.

[youareostriches]

You are responsible for your own life and happiness — not society and not some imagined social monolith of “all women”.

If you are unhappy with where you are today then it is your responsibility to take reasonable and appropriate action to change that.

Learn how to be an adult.

[jimmaswell]

"It's not society's job to be fair to you," said the employer to the Irish immigrant in 19th century America. The Irishman needed to learn how to be an adult and stop whining about hiring discrimination - it was his responsibility alone to find a job and be happy, not some imagined monolith of "all employers."

[viklove]

This is a great example of casual misandry. You seem to think men have no issues, and only women have difficult lives. That simply isn't true. Men and women both face issues, and both have issues that are both significant and insignificant. Try to learn some empathy.

[matz1]

Which is true that both sucks.

[peterwwillis]

You could list any two random things and say "yes those two things suck". If one person got mugged and another was short on bus fare, yes both would suck, but the comparison is wildly out of proportion. Not only is the impact much different, but the whole context is different. And it's especially frustrating and inappropriate when it's used to downplay an important issue.

[jimmaswell]

There are good arguments that the situation is worse for men. The Contrapoints video on incels goes over it well.

I could easily say it's like comparing having a hard time losing weight because you have so much free food available to being homeless and starving.

[generalpass]

What is true is that women typically do not understand what men experience online. That was my point.

[krapp]

Women do understand what men experience online, because many men have developed a massive victim complex lately and won't stop trying to derail every mention of something women experience online to talk about themselves.

[generalpass]

> Women do understand what men experience online,

It is not my experience with the women I know that they are aware of this. Maybe they think it is somewhat reduced from what they experience, or perhaps they think that the only women who contact men are legitimate, non-harassing contacts, but they are not aware that the actual experience is zero initiated contacts.

> because many men have developed a massive victim complex lately and won't stop trying to derail every mention of something women experience online to talk about themselves.

I have observed no massive victim complex. My comment was not intended to "derail" any mentions. I flatly stated my experience and that women are generally unaware of this experience.

If there is no interest in considering the experience of a party for whom you have some desire to influence, what is the likelihood of successful engagement? If you want men, who experience no initiated contacts to fully understand that women experience large amounts of harassment, might it be critical to approach them with the understanding that they have a completely different experience?

[krapp]

>I flatly stated my experience and that women are generally unaware of this experience.

Yes but the subject at had was, specifically, womens' experience with harassment. There was no reason to make it about you, or about men not being engaged with by women. Sure, maybe some women don't understand what men go through in that case... it's not relevant, though.

The situations aren't even equivalent. Women have a right to expect not to be harassed online, men don't have a right to expect women to initiate contact with them online.

And this sort of thing happens all the time. Almost any conversation relating to women will result in someone trying to turn the conversation towards men, or calling such conversation sexist for not including men. It's as if we're not allowed to discuss women here except in relation to men somehow.

>If you want men, who experience no initiated contacts to fully understand that women experience large amounts of harassment, might it be critical to approach them with the understanding that they have a completely different experience?

No, it shouldn't be critical. Men who don't experience contact from women should be able to comprehend that women are often harassed despite their own personal experience being different. If anything, such men should perhaps consider that the amount of harassment women receive and the degree of personal contact women are willing to initiate are not at all unrelated.

[viklove]

> Women have a right to expect not to be harassed online, men don't have a right to expect women to initiate contact with them online.

No one is arguing this... they are simply saying women don't understand how men experience online dating.

> Men who don't experience contact from women should be able to comprehend that women are often harassed despite their own personal experience being different.

If this is true, then women should be able to understand that a man who has faced nothing but rejection during years of online dating will begin to get frustrated, and may lose their peachy demeanor. After the 100th "genuine conversation" you have online with someone that ultimately goes nowhere, and the 1000th message you send that gets no response, you may begin to resort to "ay bb want some fuck?" Obviously no one deserves to be harassed online, but ignoring the factors that cause these behaviors is silly.

You won't change these men's behavior by telling them to just die alone silently and accept their loneliness. You will change men's behavior by understanding their position and empathizing with them.