[lidHanteyk]

And it's just as stupid-sounding when it comes from somebody who has training and skills. Stupider-sounding, even.

It's not like theoretical physicists have a perfect track record. Prior to modern thermodynamics, there were so many failed attempts to explain heat. Remember caloric? Phlogiston? The ultraviolet catastrophe? There have been periods of time where physics advances rapidly, and periods of time where there are long stalls and no good ideas.

Additionally, it's pretty common for a theoretical idea to turn out to be extremely practical, just in a way that wasn't obvious at first. In the past 300 years, we've gone from complex numbers being "imaginary" to being standard components of quantum mechanics. While people of Cardano's time might say that square roots of real numbers aren't real, we today understand that QM requires complex amplitudes instead of classical probabilities.

It's easy to point to where people can find interesting stuff to study. Einstein's work stemmed from noting that existing models of physics did not completely predict the solar system's behavior. Similarly, when we look at what these string theorists are aiming at, they turn out to have very reasonable idiosyncratic observations that they are trying to explain. They're examining the vacuum catastrophe, they're examining the Big Bang, they're examining quantum electronics. These are the places where our theories aren't able to explain every observation coherently; these are where we need new explanations.

[pron]

I'm not sure we've read the same text. Hossenfelder explicitly acknowledges all that -- in fact, she makes the exact point you are -- and yet says that physicists today do not practice the theoretical methodology that led to success in the past.

[lidHanteyk]

In the past, how did we figure out Mercury's orbit? We looked for Vulcan for half a century before Einstein figured out that our maths needed another term. Was the search for Vulcan founded on "entirely baseless speculation", in Sabine's words? No, there was a strong expectation that, since other planets had been found this way, particularly Neptune, only a few decades prior!

By analogy, the string theorists did present some falsifiable guesses, not based purely on speculation, but based on generalizations of mathematical patterns which were first observed in the beginnings of QM. They guessed at supersymmetries, and we've falsified most of the low-energy (easy) possibilities. This is fine; this is science as normal. And the string theorists have reacted to an inability to design new experiments by parameterizing the swampland.

Sabine doesn't seem to care that, during this same time period, we've seen weakening of more classical symmetries too! Remember charge-parity symmetry? These days we're down to CPT, and neutrinos are even weirder than we thought, and we can't explain all of this yet, but the maths needs to become more and more flexible to model these interesting observations.

To quote Sabine from her comment section:

> This lack of careful math is basically where the idea comes from that supersymmetry solves some problem. It has never been cleanly formulated just what the supposed problem is. Instead you get this community narrative that keeps people thinking there must be something to it. And such a shared belief is basically impossible to correct once you have sufficiently many people on it.

The only problem that supersymmetry solves is the problem of experimentalists wanting to be able to falsify/verify string theory. That's it. That's the only reason that it's interesting. And we failed to verify or falsify so far. This isn't bad, but people seem to think that it's bad.

The main gripe that I have with these rants of Sabine's is that, at this point, if we're so direly "lost in maths", then what non-mathematical alternative is she putting forward? How are we going to escape? I feel like there's not really any substance to that part of her argument, just a vague suggestion that somehow we'd better find somebody with the new and ground-breaking thought experiments who can lead physics out of a dark and demented era. It reeks, even if the odor isn't offensive.

To recall the thread-starter that got you worked up:

> How dare theoretical physicists develop ideas about the world around us that can't be quickly and obviously supported by real-world observations?

How dare we guess that microscopic organisms might exist before we can see them? How dare we guess that a planet might be out there before we can see it? How dare we guess that a subatomic particle might exist before we can measure it? How dare we presume symmetries before we can test their breaking points? How dare people put dark matter, dark energy, cosmological constants, or any other grandiosely-indirect hypothetical universal information into their tiny little parochial experiments done here on Earth!?

At some point, this line of thinking breaks down into absurd skepticism of any sort of mathematical modelling. Okay, fine; so, instead of maths, what shall we use?

[pron]

I am having a hard time following this, because you're not engaging with the point Hossenfelder makes, but with one she doesn't. In fact, you're trying to rebut her by agreeing with her.

She's not against mathematical modeling and hypothesizing -- quite the opposite. She's in favor of mathematical modeling of the kind that has worked so far -- as you acknowledge -- and from which physicists have strayed, at least according to her. She is for hypothesizing microorganisms and that is why she's against current hypotheses. She's against the latter because the former is works, and the latter is different.

Her point, as I understand it, is as follows. Theory and experimentation have worked hand in hand when there was a certain balance between them. But the cost, and therefore the nature of experimentation has changed, and, as a result, if theory wants to work as it has in the past, it must change as well in order to maintain this mutually-beneficial balance. In particular, she's talking about recognizing more or less promising hypotheses based on this balance. But even if she doesn't offer what you see as a solution, the lack of a solution does not imply the lack of a problem, and recognizing the problem is usually a good first step.

Pointing out that theory has worked in the past is agreeing with her, not disagreeing with her. If you actually disagree with her, are you saying that the nature of experimentation has not changed and therefore theory should not change? Are you saying that theory has already changed to maintain the balance? Or are you saying that the balance is not important? Because in order to disagree with her -- which I think is what you're trying to do -- you need to argue one of these.

And by the way, the existence of microorganisms was experimentally verified, and in many experiments, well before -- or separately from -- direct observation. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease)

[lidHanteyk]

I don't buy the bullshit that there's some sort of good math vs. bad math in physics, or that there's some necessary balance between theory and experiment. It all sounds like an attempt to forget that mathematics is harder than any hard science.

I'm saying that we have no reason to expect that we are somehow doing science any more wrongly than we used to do science. This is why I find the "Lost in Maths" critique so empty: It wants to discard all of what has worked, for no reason other than discomfort with what people are doing based on what has worked, and offers no compelling replacement bedrock.

[pron]

> I don't buy the bullshit that there's some sort of good math vs. bad math in physics

Good, because no one is saying that the math is intrinsically either good or bad. Hossenfelder says that math (in physics) works best when it focuses on things that are at least aspirationally testable. Your examples agree with her.

> I'm saying that we have no reason to expect that we are somehow doing science any more wrongly than we used to do science

Hossenfelder gives a reason: there needs to be a certain balance between experimentation and theory because that's what works, experimentation has changed, therefore theory needs to change but it hasn't. If you want to argue with the actual argument she's making -- rather than an argument you've made up and put in her mouth -- you need to challenge her premise or her conclusion, yet you're doing neither.

> It wants to discard all of what has worked

Quite the contrary: She argues that theoretical physics today is what's discarding all that has worked. She wants to continue all that has worked and discard a new approach that hasn't. Again, you're not disagreeing with anyone as you don't seem to engage with the actual argument.

> and offers no compelling replacement bedrock.

She does offer a "replacement": maintain the balance that has worked. You may not find it specific enough, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a problem, and that doing something that hasn't worked is the best we can do just because we don't know how to do what worked before.

Again, I find hard to keep this up because you seem to be responding to an argument that no one has made, and completely ignore the actual argument made. You keep saying what she says is silly, yet don't raise a single argument against her actual point. In fact, you call what she says "bullshit" and then vehemently agree with her. To actually make a couterargument you need to either say that experimentation hasn't changed, that theory has maintained its balance with experimentation or that the balance isn't important. Anything other than those three positions is irrelevant here, and certainly isn't in disagreement with Hossenfelder. I'm not a physicist, but I know a thing or two about logic, and I am honsetly interested in seeing one of these points made, but you're just lashing out without arguing anything. Which of those three possible counterarguments are you trying to express?

[lidHanteyk]

I'm saying that balance isn't important.

Science progresses by refinement of mathematical models, by crafting of narratives, by thought experiments, and by the simplifying and compressing actions of institutionalization and education.

It's irritating to be accused of not reading. Sabine's not exactly easy reading, but let's start at the top:

> In the foundations of physics, we have not seen progress since the mid 1970s when the standard model of particle physics was completed. Ever since then, the theories we use to describe observations have remained unchanged. Sure, some aspects of these theories have only been experimentally confirmed later. The last to-be-confirmed particle was the Higgs-boson, predicted in the 1960s, measured in 2012.

Oh, and why did it take half a century to confirm the Higgs? What is glossed over is that the confirmation of the Standard Model required particle accelerators, either ones we built or ones we improvised using Sol as a radiation source. We theorized, we imagined, and then we experimented and confirmed. Along the way, we discovered multiple different supporting reasons why things are the way that they are, and demolished various optimistic hopes that the answers to our questions would be simple.

To zoom out, Sabine has been slowly building up a campaign of doubting gravitational-wave observation technology. I feel like her position is that any big-science expenditure is a poor use of public funds, and that she is willing to work backwards from those conclusions.

Protip: When somebody argues against a specific thing that people are doing, but otherwise argues for the status quo, to "continue all that has worked" but "discard [a] new approach that hasn't", they are really arguing for exclusion of that specific thing. Okay, fine, but why and to what end? I feel sometimes like this is an argument that particle accelerators are a waste of public funds. (See also: top of thread.)

Y'know, you are the only person saying that I'm agreeing with you and Sabine, and then you gripe that I'm somehow saying nothing. I feel that I'm directly addressing your attempts at communication. You aren't going to make progress by accusing me of failing to commit to a position when I've been pretty open about my position from the start and when your position is framed in opposition to the thread-starting comment.