[socialdemocrat]

As a Norwegian I can relate to many things written here. Estonia is clearly ahead of us but this thing of not being the innovator but still using off the shelf technology was something I was forced to reflect upon while living in the US 15 years ago.

It was surprising how the country behind so much technology innovation was so bad at using it. It was noticeable both in the private and public sector.

It was something that I was later reminded of when reading guns, germs and steel. The author Jared Diamond remarked that the technological progress of any society is not primarily decided by your ability to innovate but by your ability to adopt and use the inventions of others. As he remarks, most innovation happens outside your own country, so it is the ability to learn from others which matters most.

A thing I think people should be aware of when obsessing about having the most cutting edge researchers rather than a technology literate population.

[jaydenseric]

America is very backwards in tech for daily life. About 2 years ago I was blown away when I arrived at the San Francisco airport and had to buy a train card with a Visa card; the customer service guy got flustered and pulled an old carbon paper swiper thing out from under the desk, and asked for my signature. In Australia it's all wireless payWave or PayPass. My Chinese GF uses her phone to pay for things and considers me old fashioned for using a card.

[vonmoltke]

> America is very backwards in tech for daily life. About 2 years ago I was blown away when I arrived at the San Francisco airport and had to buy a train card with a Visa card; the customer service guy got flustered and pulled an old carbon paper swiper thing out from under the desk, and asked for my signature.

America is very backwards because of one thing that happened to you that has literally never happened to me in the 21+ years I have been an adult here?

How did you even find a human to pay? I have always used a ticket vending machine at SFO.

[rorykoehler]

Cheques haven't even existed for 15+ years here in Ireland. America is quite slow on the uptake of tech considering they are arguably the most disruptive innovators in the world as a country.

[seanmcdirmid]

I haven’t used checks routinely for the last 20 years in the states. I’m always really annoyed when some random niche activity requires it and can’t accept an online transfer. Then I have to go to the bank and get a temporary one.

[wenc]

Checks still have lower transaction fees for large amounts than most electronic forms do payment (cost: a postage stamp).

I was looking for electronic ways to send a substantial wad of money domestically once and almost all electronic transfer providers wanted a percentage.

Would be interested to know if there are any online services that can match the transaction fee of a check.

[easymodex]

Cryptocurrencies.

[Scoundreller]

You might want to bite the bullet and buy the 200 for $10.

At least they don't expire.

[seanmcdirmid]

It is annoying. I can get certified checks for free at the bank.

[vonmoltke]

Checks have lived on beyond their useful life, unfortunately. I think the only reason they still exist is the arthritic ACH system and the desire by some receipients to avoid credit card processing fees.

Still, while checks may still be a thing they're pretty rare and rarely required. Mobile and contactless payment is pretty common (outside the food service industry, but I blame the food service industry for that).

[mailslot]

Transaction & processing fees are no joke. Big or small, 3% of your revenue before profit, is a big deal.

It made sense as a convenience fee, until it became ubiquitous. Now it’s a tax that people are blindly opting in to.

[j8014]

I think it depends on who is the customer and where things take place. My mother in law still uses checks, prefers in person banking, and doesn't use technology. She loves getting cash back when she shops. Same with a brother in law of mine, cash is king, technology is a mobile phone to sms his family and friends. He is a successful business owner, btw.

I haven't written a check since the late 90's, when I receive a check, I deposit it directly from my phone. I never carry cash. When I shop its nearly all online. Unless its a restaurant, I've ordered and paid before stepping foot or driving through the place.

The point being, business's accommodate their customers and there is a shocking amount of people who don't care about technology in the US, especially outside of business and tech centers.

[nereye]

Cheques exist in Ireland to this day, e.g. see https://personalbanking.bankofireland.com/campaigns/bank-of-....

Or, from https://www.permanenttsb.ie/legal-information/terms-and-cond...:

Taxes and Additional Costs 1. Government Stamp Duty will be charged to your account for each cheque book issued to you (currently €20 per cheque book of 40 cheques). ... etc.

[rorykoehler]

I stand corrected but the observation is still valid.

[piva00]

I had similar experiences with backwards technology while visiting the US. Buying tickets for the BART or Caltrain is nothing similar to the experience with NS in the Netherlands or even the BVG/MVG in Germany (even if Caltrain nowadays has an app), it feels really antiquated and buggy. Having my card swiped and asking for signatures in receipts at stores, cafés or restaurants is also a thing of the past even in Brazil.

The metro card in NYC is also pretty outdated, the whole metro system looks terrible but talking strictly about technology even the ticket machines are problematic, touch screens that don't work properly and so on; buying bus ticket in PABT is also a quite bad experience.

[vonmoltke]

Except for the actual card technology issues (which are frustrating, though that glacier is slowly moving), those are all matters of how those transit agencies are run, not issues with the payment system.

As for cashless technology, there is significant political backlash to cashless systems. See the efforts by NYC to force businesses to accept cash as payment. I don't think the glacier is going to move much faster until that political resistance is addressed.

Edit: s/cars/cashless/

Android predictive autocorrect is worse than useless these days.

[pmjordan]

those are all matters of how those transit agencies are run, not issues with the payment system.

I think that was the point of the originator of the thread - the technology is there, it's just not applied properly. It may have improved recently, but when visiting SF for a few weeks in 2013 and 2014 I was left scratching my head about how best to charge my Clipper card for Muni transit. Topping up the credit via the website had a waiting time of 1-2 working days, so if you were trying to catch a tram or bus into the city centre from the outer neighbourhoods, you had to plan ahead for having enough credit, especially when the weekend was coming up. At BART stations it was usually less problematic to charge the cards - assuming the machine worked, which wasn't always the case.

At any rate, the whole thing felt very uncivilised and anachronistic compared to my experiences in much of Europe, Japan, Hong Kong, and Taiwan. (Japan's Pasmo and similar cards require cash for charging and largely don't accept credit cards, but you'd be hard pressed to find anywhere where you'd have to walk more than a block for an opportunity to charge them - or to find an ATM for obtaining the cash you need.)

[delfinom]

>As for cashless technology, there is significant political backlash to cashless systems. See the efforts by NYC to force businesses to accept cash as payment. I don't think the glacier is going to move much faster until that political resistance is addressed.

But it's political resistance for valid reasons. Per the FDIC, 18% of Americans are underbanked https://www.fdic.gov/householdsurvey/ and 8% are unbanked.

The real problem is 1.) banks are a cancer on society. Most banks these days charge you ridiculous fees if you don't have even a $1500 in the account 2.) the unbanked and underbanked aren't introduced enough to credit unions which are ideally their answer to having savings account that doesnt fuck them 3.) unforunately credit unions cant afford to take risk with offering those with poor credit ratings a credit card

Otherwise, consider yourself lucky to be posting on HackerNews from probably working a tech job to be arguing for non-cash accepting stores. Plenty of people don't have that luxury.

[icebraining]

Accepting cashless tech and not accepting cash are unrelated issues. Here I can use my phone alone as the transit ticket, buy a physical ticket with a contactless ATM card or with plain coins and bills.

[delfinom]

>The metro card in NYC is also pretty outdated, the whole metro system looks terrible but talking strictly about technology even the ticket machines are problematic, touch screens that don't work properly and so on; buying bus ticket in PABT is also a quite bad experience.

The Metrocard is what one would call a hi-rel product, it hasn't been replaced because it works (baring the annoyance of the turnstile readers which one can eventually master and never have an issue). It is being phased out now in favor of NFC and contactless card payments by 2022. It's only really recently that NFC support has become widespread in private industry anyway and most banks have resisted the same on issuing contactless cards due to cost (and little or no retailer support until recently). They are also adding a buyable in cash payment card for those that dont have a phone or credit card for the poorer folks that don't have the luxury (essentially contactless Metrocard).

Touchscreens are another fun animal. The reason many suck is because they are resistive instead of capacitance touch. They can be made far more resilient against damage/vandalism than a capacitive touchscreen of a phone where the agency would go bankrupt repairing them every day. Downside is, resistive screens do really suck.

[csomar]

> Having my card swiped and asking for signatures in receipts at stores, cafés or restaurants is also a thing of the past even in Brazil.

They are just trying to get that sweet tip.

[TulliusCicero]

I've found Germany is even more backwards for consumer-facing tech. I frequently have to pay with cash at businesses here, and of course make sure to always have a coin on you for the shopping cart at the grocery store! Additionally, websites for German institutions are markedly behind what I was used to in the states (e.g. elementary schools), they all still rely heavily on phone calls and letters, and I still had people giving me photos burned on CD's, or emailing them to me one photo at a time. Software/internet UX in general just seems very behind, too.

That's not to say that Germany is less advanced than the US as a whole, but when it comes to consumer-facing software stuff, it feels substantially behind.

[distances]

Note that a big reason for cash use in Germany is privacy (no trace of your purchases) and thriftiness (stores avoiding card payment fees).

But yes, Germany is quite slow to adopt new technology.

[TulliusCicero]

> Note that a big reason for cash use in Germany is privacy (no trace of your purchases)

Well, no. That explains why consumers might pay with cash, but not why businesses would only take cash.

> thriftiness (stores avoiding card payment fees).

This one, yeah makes sense. Although it has less explanatory power for EC cards than credit cards imo. Aren't EC card payment fees quite low?

Plus IIRC studies show people being more willing to spend more with 'plastic' than cash, so it may actually be a false savings for the business.

And it's not like Germany is collectively taking some principled position against digital payments, they're just slower on the adoption curve; it IS still happening. To me this points more to the general conservatism on digital things that you can see elsewhere as well (e.g. uptake of digital books, downloaded vs physical video games, downloaded/streamed music, etc.) rather than something specific to payments themselves.

[puranjay]

America's banking system is the best example. My clients still pay me via ACH that takes 2-3 days to clear. Meanwhile in my local market, I can send/receive money instantly for either zero or a fee capped at less than $0.10/transaction.

[kombucha11]

Seems like FedNow was created to ease some of these pain points. https://multichannelmerchant.com/blog/fednow-service-will-of...

[wil421]

We use trains in America? I had a similar experience in Germany with cash. Many of the cafes in Munich did not accept cards. A Finnish student I met shared awkward stories about forgetting to carry cash. I had to walk across the Munich airport to find an ATM to pay my expensive cab with cash. His credit card app could not connect to its services.

[seanmcdirmid]

How did you not find an automated kiosk to by a train ticket or pass? Many of these even have the same tap to pay that you are familiar with in Australia.

Since moving back to the states from China 3 years ago, I’ve gone to the ATM twice, and I no longer have to fumble with a phone to align QR codes. To each their own, I guess.

[mattmanser]

Yes, very forward thinking paying with your phone, letting Google have access to your purchase history.

Very generous to them.

[ahodges22]

Umm when did you go to San Francisco? They've had BART ticket vending machines there that take credit cards for as long as I can remember.

[anthonybsd]

I think your experience is a complete outlier. I literally only go the ATM when I need to give cash to a friend or something weird like that. I spend most of my life in NYC / Financial District. I can't recall the last time I even had to use a physical credit card - everything is either Apple Pay or Level Up, i.e. pay with the phone. Even the subway lines I use have been converted to touchless entry. It's pretty marvelous.

[signal11]

The payments system in the US is really creaking at the seams, but overall tech adoption by people and small businesses isn't bad.

In the UK, the payments system works quite well, but what amazes me is how much physical letters are still a thing: for doctors' appointments with the state-run health system (the NHS), for schools communicating with parents, etc, taking personalized plates on and off a car, ...

[TulliusCicero]

Same thing in Germany, I've been surprised at how much reluctance there is to use email or websites for things, instead relying on physical mail or phone calls.

Elementary school wants to communicate about some appointment? Do they use the email from us they already have? Haha no, of course they send a letter (that arrives the day of the appointment, natch), and then later call us to complain that we didn't show. And their website looks like it was designed by an intern in 2006, and is virtually never used to communicate useful information throughout the year.

The current elementary school we have does use email...but much of the content they send actually comes in a PDF instead of the email itself, and not the type of with actual text, it's just a bitmap, so to translate we type shit in manually into Deepl (or use OCR for the longer things).

Want to re-up your alditalk account without going to the store? Want to use a credit card, or even Germany-specific debit card? Nope, you tell us your address and we'll send you a letter, which you can then use to authenticate your bank account for transfers. I guess they're worried about...people paying for my phone service on my behalf?

[kristofferR]

One fascinating difference between Estonia and Norway is that Norway doesn't have a digital ID card - we instead use a government single sign-on platform for vetted private login provider companies.

The vast majority of people use BankID, a login system run by a consortium of most banks.

It used to require a cumbersome 2FA device, but for the last 5 years it has also been available as a Sim Toolkit App, so most use that now.

The way it works is pretty cool, you just type your SSN in a login form and immediately a popup window with a word based 2FA appears on your phone.

Seems like less of a hassle to just use your phone than the Estonian system with a physical card reader.

[karulont]

In addition to the physical ID card, Estonian system also has MobileID, that uses the SIM toolkit. So there is no hassle with the physical card reader.

And also the newest is SmartID(used by banks), also based on mobile devices, but without requiring a special SIM card.

[kristofferR]

Ah, that's cool, seems like it is pretty similar in practice then.

I find it extremely weird that not every other developed country has implemented similar solutions.

It's a win-win for all parties, both the government, business and the population - making interactions and transactions simpler, cheaper and faster.

[sccxy]

Estonia also uses Mobile-ID and it works same way as you described.

https://e-estonia.com/solutions/e-identity/mobile-id/