[XJ6]

All "big tech" are at it, I tried to go to "My Pictures" the other day and microsoft asked me to run my pictures through facial recognition.

They said that by consenting I was asserting I had the consent of anyone who appeared in any of my photos or might appear in future which is insane to ask of anyone, no-one can really give that third party consent.

Then when I refused they showed me a nag screen which didn't have that warning.

Then just yesterday I opened google camera and it really wanted to run face recognition on my photos. I refused.

I wanted to try the google podcasts but it was a brick because I had disabled "youtube & web activity" in google account settings. There was no way to subscribe to podcasts without web activity, the application said. And without subscribing there was nothing the app could do.

We have a company claiming that because I don't consent to have my web and youtube activity tracked that there's no way I could subscribe to a podcast that I explicitly choose to subscribe to in an application designed for subscribing to podcasts.

They don't stop trying, everyone is trying to hoover up all data, all the time.

[prepend]

Google has implemented this asshole design/nagware in many products to push unnecessary to me and invasive data collection or functionality I want won’t be available.

For example, their maps app on iOS won’t save locations for me unless I sign in an enable web history tracking. I get prompted every time I try to save a pin as well as every once in a while I’m case I change my mind.

It’s a free app and it’s Google’s prerogative to try to get value out of it. But it’s annoying to me that they purposely don’t implement client tech (eg, save to app cache, device cookie not tied to individual) that would make their app better for me. And that they nag with no way to turn off forever. Their app already shows ads and makes money for them, they just want more money from the data stream.

I also worry about less savvy customers who don’t understand the prompt and unwittingly opt in to data collection that exists forever. The Facebook privacy explosion of last year is an example of users who accepted terms, but didn’t understand them, and got upset when data was used in ways that upset them.

[astral303]

I think Google Maps not saving your history as you described is an incredibly bad, frustrating experience.

FFS, my phone has gigs of RAM, why can’t Google Maps remember the address I searched for ten minutes ago? One minute ago? This is 2019. It has been this bad for a decade plus. Embarrassing IMO and demonstrates true UX myopia and true UX incompetence.

[SamuelAdams]

Personally I switched to Apple Maps after the iOS 13 release and haven't looked back. Because it's integrated into the OS, Apple Maps can look into your messages and auto-complete addresses from that. It can also save places without you signing into an account.

The only thing I miss is google's "offline" mode. I live in Michigan, and I frequently go on trips up north into heavily wooded areas. I don't always get cell service, so being able to save map data locally is a huge benefit. I can still search for nearby gas stations or stores even if I do not have cell service.

From what I tried, there's no way to save data in Apple Maps - it assumes the device is always connected to the internet.

[DHPersonal]

HERE WeGo has an offline version. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/here-wego-city-navigation/id95...

[Marsymars]

I would pay Apple a monthly fee to get Apple Maps on Android.

[jrobn]

I also nuked google maps from my iPhone after iOS 13.

I share your frustration.

[wlesieutre]

Normally I'd say "never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence," but I really do think Google could fix this if they wanted to.

It still sucks because they don't want to fix it. Google makes their money off of people giving up info for ad targeting, and a user who only contributes one or two manually saved locations probably costs them more than they stand to gain.

[zenography]

Occam's razor also needs to be applied. If the explanation involving malice is the simpler option that makes fewer assumptions, then it is more likely.

[astral303]

I bet this has been discussed internally, but nobody cares because they don’t care about UX enough. They don’t understand the impact. The internal organization is fractured into fiefdoms defending internal services (e.g. deployment, AMP) and defending layers (e.g. SRE department), with nobody left responsible for the complete, vertically integrated user experience.

To me, this is a simpler explanation than malice.

[mackrevinack]

I started using openstreetmap 3 years ago now and I hadn't had to use Google maps since. unfortunately not everyone else might have the same luck. it really depends on whether there are mappers in your area or have been in the past.

only way to know would be to download osmAnd and find out. it's a good all rounder app. for navigation i tend to use maps.me

[velosol]

Back in the Lollipop, maybe even KitKat days the maps app would save searches locally without web & app activity on similar to how the current gmail app keeps the last few searches locally even when you have web & app activity turned off in your profile.

[prepend]

Similarly, I wish Google.com wouldn’t prompt me about how awesome chrome is every time I visit and not logged in. At least with this, I can just keep a chrome instance for only google products. So I stayed logged in, but it’s not of my real web usage.

[throwaheyy]

That kind of user-hostile bullshit is why I avoid anything and everything associated with Google. Still use search, but trying to break that habit.

[indigochill]

I gotta be that guy and recommend DuckDuckGo. No, it's not always as good as Google search, but it's still usually good enough and when you -really- need Google you can simply add "g!". Every other time, you can rest assured your searches aren't feeding some AI.

DDG is at least a reasonable way to ween yourself off Google search rather than needing to go full cold turkey.

[nvrspyx]

As I always do when this is suggested, I recommend using “!s” for Startpage instead of “!g” for Google.

Similar to DDG, Startpage provides results in a privacy respecting way, but it uses Google instead of Bing (and Oath), which DDG uses. There’s a common misconception amongst some that using !g on DDG is private, but it’s just a redirect, so Google can gather information from that search. Using !s as the fallback instead will keep your searches private.

[fauigerzigerk]

I don't understand the business model of Startpage. They pay Google for using their search engine. Their revenue comes from non-personalised advertising.

So that means either Startpage has higher ad margins than Google or Google is selling services to Startpage below their own search margins or Startpage has some other source of funds to subsidise the search engine.

[brewdad]

They do have a freemium mail offering

https://www.startmail.com/en/

I have no idea how much revenue this may bring in but it can't be much since I don't think I've ever seen it recommended in an Ask HN thread.

[Marsymars]

> or Google is selling services to Startpage below their own search margins

I expect this is the case - it's still better for Google to capture a user at lower margins via Startpage than to lose them to Bing.

[indigochill]

Awesome, I didn't actually know about that option. Will try that now instead.

I do find the mention of DDG using Oath rather alarming, though, since Oath seems particularly obnoxious, at least with their GDPR pop-up on Tumblr. What does DDG do with Oath?

[nvrspyx]

Let me correct myself: Oath (formerly Yahoo) and Bing. However, that's still not right. It's now Verizon Media (formerly Yahoo) and Bing, not Oath.

DDG was originally using Yahoo and Bing. Yahoo was thrown under the Oath umbrella along with AOL, Tumblr, Engadget, etc. when they were acquired by Verizon. I assume for transparency, DDG stated they use "Oath (formerly Yahoo) and Bing" on their Sources help page to indicate who they're actually making the deal with.[0] However, I guess Verizon has changed the Oath name to Verizon Media, so now it's "Verizon Media (formerly Yahoo) and Bing".

But, to answer your question. It's just a long winded way of saying Yahoo.

[0]: https://help.duckduckgo.com/duckduckgo-help-pages/results/so...

[krageon]

I moved to DuckDuckGo and I'm not going to lie, I hate it. I've been using it almost exclusively for a few months now and what it has definitely done is lower my impulse to search for things. Perhaps that is what you are after, in which case definitely try it.

[pteraspidomorph]

If you use duckduckgo, in the situations in which you think the results are inadequate you can fall back on google by appending !g to the end of your search.

[molmalo]

What about youtube app asking every time to suscribe to youtube premium? I say no, then after a while I'm asked again.

Seriously, I already said no 100s of times, why keep asking?

[Kaiyou]

What else can you use, though? DuckDuckGo tracks you too, they're just lying about it, which is imho worse. Don't have the links handy right now, but it should be searchable. Alternatively, don't trust me.

[AJ007]

They’ve done the same to AdWords and Adsense. I have messages that have been showing for years now and won’t go away.

[CaptainZapp]

Have yo tried maps.me on IOS?

I can't speak for their privacy practices, but it has the bifg advantage of letting you download maps to use them off-line.

[brewdad]

Maps.me is my go to app when traveling in a foreign country where I may not have cell service. At home, in my car, I often need traffic info more than I need to know how to reach my destination. Is there a privacy respecting app that can deliver that?

[tomcatfish]

The weirdest thing to me is that the data is still there and is still accessible. Google Maps won't remember my "Home" and "Work" locations, but when the device is in airplane mode, it will show the GPS coordinates of both (although they were "forgotten" several devices ago, and this phone has no way of knowing about them)

[barrkel]

I use separate accounts for Google Maps vs Web Search.

[jwalton]

> I wanted to try the google podcasts but it was a brick because I had disabled "youtube & web activity"

This is the worst. I have all the privacy settings turned up. In Google Maps on my phone, when I try to set my "Home" location, it tells me I need to turn on "Web and App Activity". What? Why? How are these two things related? Why do you have to track what apps I use and upload this info to Google in order to remember where my house is?

It's a bit like a psycho ex; "You want to have my phone number in your phone even though we broke up? Ok, but that means I get to install this camera in your bedroom."

The worst part is, it's all lies. If I open up Android Auto it says "12 mins to Home", so maps in Android Auto still knows where "Home" is, even though the Google Maps app claims it can't set home anymore.

[mguerville]

I had an app that refused to work unless high accuracy location was turned on. There was a location aspect to it but demanding the highest setting of location sharing was vastly overreaching and I just uninstalled the app.

[vengefulduck]

Out of curiosity how did you know the precision of location the app was asking for? If I recall correctly android gives the same permission prompt for fine and course location.

[sc8erboy]

You get asked it you would like to "Improve location accuracy", just after giving location permissions.

http://i.imgur.com/KTkrQvN.png

[Marsymars]

> Why do you have to track what apps I use and upload this info to Google in order to remember where my house is?

It's not a real requirement at all. I have "Home" and "Work" remembered from before it was a "requirement". They pop up as quick nav actions when holding the Google Maps homescreen icon on my phone, or when opening a GMaps Driving icon.

But I'm not allowed to set the "Home" and "Work" locations in the actual app, so they don't work via text or voice search.

[Terretta]

Not all big tech are at it.

The reason you hear a global sigh that “my battery life is terrible!” at every major iOS release, is the photo face to people clustering is done entirely on-device, and which photos are in the cluster is not shared across devices through iCloud.

There are several such features where Apple has made life difficult for themselves and the UX a little less seamless for users, in service of not giving themselves all the data.

Depending how the politics of privacy go, we could find an aggregation of personal data is not an asset, but a liability.

In such an environment, avoiding “hoovering up all data” is both a marketing point, and a reduction of risk exposure.

[prepend]

Is Apple the only big tech that’s using AI on device in a privacy protecting way?

I appreciate their approach to user functionality that doesn’t dump all my data into a near infinite number of collectors.

I also think it’s a neat way of distributed computing to use the cpus of all these phones sleeping at night to crunch stuff is actually cheaper than cloud. I think because the phones are sunk cost that is idle a few hours a day.

I miss the BOINC/Folding/SETI at Home clients that used to run as my screensaver and try to do good.

[dawg-]

I think Google is trying to do this with the new update to Assistant - the language model is only 500mb so it can all be processed on the local device. I saw in a blog post somewhere they are trying to get to where individual devices hold data and compile these aggregated profiles on the device, the send the profiles to google for their ad services and other big data stuff

[prepend]

I use Google Translate and that works well with offline datasets to do CV and translation without any network or cloud usage.

I don’t think the photo app or assistant app allows this functionality although they likely could.

[solidasparagus]

Believe it or not, Google is the leader in the space of privacy-centric AI - see Federated Learning.

[Arelius]

I don't buy the fact that "Ferderated Learning" is privacy centric so much as it is liability and/or privacy-marketing centric. I feel that in the long run we will discover that using "ML" as a black box to smuggle user data off device won't hold up to scrutiny.

[prepend]

I find that hard to believe as Google’s definition of privacy is not mine. I believe Google could be awesome if they wanted, but it’s in conflict with their business mode.

[froindt]

I'm not an iOS user. Is there a reason the clustering can't be done while charging? Does it simply take longer than a charge cycle if a person has thousands of photos?

[jacobheric]

I didn't even realize google had a podcast app. I just installed it and you're right, I can't subscribe to a podcast since I have disabled web activity history. That's a particularly egregious dark pattern.

[wowamit]

I wonder why does Google need the web activity to be turned on for subscribing to the Podcasts? Is there any realistic reasoning for it?

[elliekelly]

I bet they run targeted advertising in the podcast based on each listener’s web activity. Now I’m dreading the day YouTube makes the switch and doesn’t let you watch any monetized videos unless you consent to being tracked.

[tagawa]

I think this is the part hidden from view when companies claim they let users opt out of data collection. Yes you can opt out, but some (possibly unrelated) features won’t be available to you.

[wowamit]

Yes, but I think when they disable that feature, they must provide some justification that is believable right? I can't think of any for this.

[SifJar]

"if we can't profit from you, you can't use our services" seems like a fairly reasonable justification from a business' perspective

[Cthulhu_]

I know podcasts are generally advertised via an RSS feed on a webpage, but that should be collected by e.g. Google (or Spotify, Apple), not directly by a device.

[a3n]

Bait. That's today's reality.

[4140tm]

Up until recently I couldn't actually do much with google maps on my phone because I have restricted it from using microphone. An error would pop up on every simple address lookup

[what_ever]

I don't think your issue was related to microphone permission. I have never allowed the microphone permission to Google Maps and haven't faced any such issues.

Disc: Googler.

[velosol]

The GP may also have had microphone and other permissions disabled for Google Play Services which can get cranky with fewer than full permissions.

[profmonocle]

> They said that by consenting I was asserting I had the consent of anyone who appeared in any of my photos

Does it let you specifically choose which photos to analyze, or does it scan your whole library?

If it's the former, facial recognition doesn't sound very useful if I have to go through each of my photos and figure out who's in them beforehand.

And if it's the latter, tracking down the strangers in the background of my 2006 vacation photos sounds time-consuming.

[bonestamp2]

Side question, are you British? I'm asking because I've just read "hoover up" for the second time in my life and both were in the past week and although I understand the meaning of the phrase and I can guess why it came about, I'm trying to understand where it came from geographically.

[mceachen]

That's in my vernacular, but I blame my Proudly British Grandpa.

[celticmusic]

I don't have any of these issues, but it's because I use my phone solely for making phone calls and GPS. I'm also on IOS, which may have something to do with it.

[wazoox]

Aaaand that's why I never uploaded any photo with recognizable individuals (except people performing publicly) to Google Photos...

[TurkishPoptart]

I'm sorry to break this to you, but I think all photos taken on Android are automatically uploaded to Google Photos regardless

[mceachen]

Only if you have Google Photos installed and have configured it up to backup your photos and videos.

[wazoox]

Which I obviously didn't do. I only upload manually selected photos to Google Photos, albeit very rarely.

[Tarq0n]

Google assistant requires a fair amount of data collection turned on to function as well.

GDPR enforcement for this stuff will hopefully happen soon. As far as I can tell this stuff is illegal in the EU.

[pintxo]

In case you are in the EU, this is a pretty clear case of a GDPR violation [1], you might want to raise this with you data protection agency. (They might have no resources to assists you though)

[1] https://gdpr.eu/gdpr-consent-requirements/, https://gdpr.eu/Recital-42-Burden-of-proof-and-requirements-...