[Nokinside]

We know how the wavelengths penetrate into the body and how much power goes into the skin. In new 60 Ghz 5G wavelengths skin reflects 20-30% of the power and the rest is almost completely absorbed by the epidermis. Overall the power densities are so slow that there is no reason to except anything.

Exposing skin to the sun is known radiation hazard. If you go outside during daytime why worry about 5G?

[missosoup]

> skin reflects 20-30% of the power and the rest is almost completely absorbed by the epidermis.

So 70% of the energy is absorbed by the skin. What does that much energy at those freqs do to the epidermis? I don't know, you don't know. I'm not saying you're making a case for the conspiracy theories, but you're certainly not making one against them.

> If you go outside during daytime why worry about 5G?

If you go outside during daytime on an Australian summer day without sunscreen including underneath your clothing, you're going to get severe sunburn and permanently increase your chance of skin cancer in under 15 minutes. We have public awareness campaigns about this on TV and everything. Not a great comparison.

I have no idea whether 5g freq ranges and power have health impacts, I'm just saying that clearly you don't either.

You could repeat everything you said for 2.450 MHz and sound plausible, except that's the frequency of microwave ovens that cook things including humans. Do any molecules resonate at 5g freqs? I have no idea, neither do you.

[mrtnmcc]

Molecules don't resonate at 5G frequencies.. even with 5G mmWave, the wavelengths are about 10,000x too long (millimeters). It's like riding on a cruise ship in the ocean and worrying that the wine glass in your hand is going to resonate and shatter from the ocean waves.

The impact on tissue is still thermal.. and the power flux densities of 5G are small compared to the sun, especially so because RF bandwidths are tiny compared to the blackbody radiation spectrum of the sun.

You would have to show why these RF transmissions are more pathological than the random process EM waves generated by solar blackbody. If you look at a modern cellular OFDM waveform, it is almost statistically indistinguishable from broadband noise. It had the same Peak to average power ratio, the same flat spectral bandwidths, and the same affinity to causing resonances--its just much much lower in amplitude than solar.

[missosoup]

All polar molecules will react to all EM fields. (did you know you can bend a water stream with a magnet?).

The wavelength of microwave ovens is even longer, at 6.66cm. And yet that's the rotational resonant frequency of water. Weird, huh? By the way, you can confirm this with a single slice of cheese with the turnplate removed and then calculate the speed of light from the burn marks on that cheese being 3.33cm apart :)

The only question is whether that reaction at any given frequency has any impact on the larger system those molecules are part of.

The answer is scientists aren't sure because they haven't had a chance to experiment much, and you and I are sure as shit not qualified to comment on it.

I'm not going to don a tinfoil hat over 5g rollouts, but this cavalier attitude of just expecting everything to be fine without any meaningful testing is just as bad if not worse than the conspiracy theories.

[mrtnmcc]

Microwave ovens are not very narrowband and certainly do not excite 'rotational resonances of water'. The periodic burn marks on your cheese are from coarse standing waves within the microwave oven cavity (related to the magnetron resonance and spacing of the walls).. it has nothing to do with molecular resonances.

EDIT: the reason it cooks food is the intensity of the field strength (1 kilowatt per cubic ft, or ~27,000 watts per cubic meter) in a microwave oven. 5G signals are tens of microwatts (millionths of a watt) per cubic meter. That's a difference of a factor of 10's of billions.

[missosoup]

Please explain the mechanism for the 2.45Mhz microwave oven cooking food and how that rules out the possibility of the 5g band having unintended interactions with molecules found in living organisms. You can settle this debate for the EU and save them a few million bucks worth of studies.

[gsich]

power in a microwave oven: 1000 watt

power from your phone: 0.2 watt in case of LTE.

reveived power from a basestation: around -40 to -120 dbm.

[gsich]

>The wavelength of microwave ovens is even longer, at 6.66cm. And yet that's the rotational resonant frequency of water. Weird, huh? By the way, you can confirm this with a single slice of cheese with the turnplate removed and then calculate the speed of light from the burn marks on that cheese being 3.33cm apart :)

Not really. 2.4GHz was chosen because it allowed to built microwave ovens at that particular size and because nobody cares about the 2.4GHz range. You can build 900 MHz ovens too, there are some, mainly for industrial usage.

[mercutio2]

All EM waves can interact with molecules in our bodies, that’s true.

But all of the interaction is thermal, not ionizing. And the energy levels are so tiny that the thermal impact is much less than the thermal impact of opening or closing a window on a warm day.

Microwave ovens have thermal interactions with the food inside them, because the microwave runs at tens of thousands of times higher power than is used for radio frequency signaling.

2.4 GHz WiFi isn’t microwaving our bodies, and neither will 5G.

[missosoup]

Restricting the harm window to ionising radiation is a red herring.

We know that magnetic fields alone have very apparent interactions with humans and other living organisms[1].

The only mitigating factor here is the TRP, but at the FCC limit of 500 watts ERP per channel, that's actually not too far off from microwave ovens. I doubt it'll hurt humans unless they happen to live in the immediate path of an eNodeB, but I don't think either one of us is qualified to speculate about what it'll do to inspects and birds that will pass much closer to it.

Your wifi router isn't cooking you because it's at a significantly lower ERP than a microwave oven, but the same is not true for a mobile cell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulat...

[mercutio2]

I will not dispute that if you are less than a meter from a transmitting cell tower, you might be uncomfortable.

But the induced magnetic fields from this level of power, dispersed at an inverse square rate, which isn’t penetrating far past the skin, just doesn’t seem reasonable to fear.

[Nokinside]

> What does that much energy at those freqs do to the epidermis

It's mostly dead cells, so not much.