[eesmith]

"fat and ugly" is not the definition of a creep. Stallman's "creep" factor comes in part from his way of making inappropriate sexual advances. Here are some examples of people calling him a creep:

"There are many valid criticisms of Richard Stallman: ... he has creeped out some women by making passes at them (or so they tell me). - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2327849 (2011)

There are stories on Twitter like the following from 2018, https://twitter.com/suzanne_hillman/status/99459683376166092.... :

> He flirts with anyone who is female, even if they are underage. He is creepy in person, in a way that I cannot adequately describe. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that he kept women out of open source and free software, and many of his ideas stayed even after he left.

Or https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2019/09/17/rms-resig.... :

> rms was in the whisper network as a creep when I was in undergrad late last millennium, and I wasn’t even at MIT.

[foobar_]

If he was not ugly would you consider his behaviour creeping or mild flirtatiousness?

There was a whole Justin Bieber creeping his followers, where no one seemed to complain.

I'm pretty sure if someone said "No" please stop doing then RMS would stop. Are there cases where he didn't? If so .. I take back my words.

Autistic types or Asperger types whatever you want to call it ... take things very literally. They are visual-oriented and big-picture thinkers. This affects both men and women btw. Verbal thinking is not their strong suit. Body language reading is not their strong suit. Sarcasm and mean communication is not their strong suit. They are blunt and straightforward to a fault. Autistic types will be Autistic even in Rome.

This almost seems like Gallelio being house arrested because the feminist popes couldn't comprehend him.

If the average girl expects psychic powers of body language reading and reading the room before you utter a word ... that's just expecting men to behave like women. It's never going to happen.

[eesmith]

Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep?

I do not think Stallman is ugly, so I don't know why that's even an issue. He's had at least one girlfriend, so it's not like his physical attributes are a universal turn-off. Can you find women writing they don't like him because he's fat and ugly? Because finding accounts of women who dislike his creepy sexual advances is not hard.

Do not use 'Autistic types or Asperger types' as a "boys will be boys" type excuse. I'll quote an autistic person, at https://twitter.com/HickeyWriter/status/1172674056828661764

> I'm autistic. I am not good at social cues. I have, in my time, held quite a few shitty, offensive opinions. But when people have pointed out how awful those opinions are to me, I've thought "Oh shit, they're right," apologised, and changed my opinions.

Or from another autistic person, at https://twitter.com/mykola/status/1172685579424817152 :

> Being autistic doesn't make you an asshole, certainly not a pedophile. It mostly makes you a little weird.

Your argument, if it makes any sense, means that Stallman should have been kicked out long ago because he was being surrounded by enablers and yes-men who didn't provide the feedback he needed for his position.

Which, as you likely know, is one of the comments made by the linked-to page:

> I was around for most of the 90s, and I can confirm the unfortunate reality that RMS’s behavior was a concern at the time, and that this protection [by Minsky and the AI Lab] was itself part of the problem. He was never held to account; he was himself coddled in his own lower-grade misbehavior and mistreatment of women. He made the place uncomfortable for a lot of people, and especially women.

How can you meaningfully write "Justin Bieber creeping his followers" if you think "creeping" means "fat and ugly"?

And, "the feminist popes" ... WTF?!

[foobar_]

> Because finding accounts of women who dislike his creepy sexual advances is not hard.

Sexual advances? I doubt it. Women confuse friendly behaviour with sexual intent all the time. Men do too. Friedly behaviour from ugly people is considered creepy. Most ugly people learn to not do that ... but Autistic people present a problem in this regard.

> Your argument, if it makes any sense, means that Stallman should have been kicked out long ago because he was being surrounded by enablers and yes-men who didn't provide the feedback he needed for his position.

It takes two google searches to find feminist popes who support paedophilia and incest. Let's ruin their entire careers, dreams, ambitions and piss on their graves if they are dead.

[eesmith]

Do I take it that you don't want to address any of the other issues I raised?

If you really think that "creep" means 'fat and ugly', then why do you think Stallman is ugly while I don't? A lot of people are fat and ugly. Most aren't considered creeps. You called out Bieber's creeping behavior, so what's your definition of creep that doesn't involve being fat and ugly?

Congratulations on your doubt. What evidence would change your mind?

Are you one of those men who like to leer at attractive women's breasts, give wolf whistles to women walking by, and tell women 'they need to smile more; they are too pretty to be sad", and say it's meant as friendly compliment?

Because if so, you are one of the misogynist problems in this world.

If not, then there's plenty of examples right there of women who do not consider those to be 'friendly behavior' even when the men regard it as such.

Again, "Autistic people" is not an excuse for 30 years of continued behavior in Stallman's position. The vast majority of autistic people are not sexual creeps.

So what? It takes two Google searches to find Nazis living in Antarctica, Flat Earthers, and Moon Landing denialists. As far as I can tell, there have been no pope which advocated for the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes, and especially not at the time of Galileo.

FWIW, I looked and didn't find what you were talking about.

[foobar_]

Ah ... you must be on the spectrum. I'm not a misogynist. I don't care about a majority of the men and women. I just don't pretend to be a humanist.

[eesmith]

"then there's plenty of examples right there of women who do not consider those to be 'friendly behavior' even when the men regard it as such."

Which undermines your earlier thesis.

[zozbot234]

> Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep?

You think people aren't doing it all the time? Gossiping around folks, calling them fat and ugly behind their back? "Creep" is just the next step in the bullying ladder. (Of course, RMS hasn't exactly made things hard for his bullies. But let's not pretend that this sort of dynamic never happens in such cases.)

[eesmith]

If '"Creep" is just the next step in the bullying ladder' then there should be far more examples of women calling Stallman 'fat and ugly' than there are of calling him a creep.

What limited examples I found of calling Stallman 'fat' appear to come from males who also use, eg, racial or ethnic slurs against him.

The observed evidence therefore is not that there is a single ladder, but that there are multiple ladders, and "creep" is a different ladder than "fat" is a different ladder than "ugly".

Let's also not pretend that Stallman didn't have a decades long history of behavior which most other people of similar weight and beauty don't have.

[foobar_]

There was also this "hot inmate" meme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Meeks

Speaks volumes in how pretty people are treated vs how fat and ugly people are treated.

[eesmith]

Or, Jethro Tull's "Fat Man":

  Don't want to be a fat man
  People would think that I was just good fun, man
  Would rather be a thin man
  I am so glad to go on being one, man

  Too much to carry around with you
  No chance of finding a woman, who
  Will love you in the morning and all the nighttime too

  Don't want to be a fat man
  Have not the patience to ignore all that
  Hate to admit to myself
  I thought my problems came from being fat

But there's no evidence that "fat and ugly" = "creep".