[theprotocol]

I used to have to go to the dentist every 5-6 months in order to remove built-up plaque that kept returning.

After starting supplementation with vitamin K2 every few days (a combination of MK-4 500mcg and Mk-7 100mcg), within a few weeks the plaque came off on its own when I brushed my teeth, and now I just don't have any plaque anymore.

This doesn't work for everyone, and for me, the MK-4 form alone did not produce this effect. The MK-4 form is sort of like "preformed" K2, as opposed to the MK-7 form, which is more like a precursor that persists in your blood for much longer before being converted as needed. It probably has something to do with dental plaque / biofilm being calcium-based, and vitamin K2 causes calcium to be removed from inappropriate places in the body.

I much prefer this to something fully engineered like micro-robots.

edit: It seems it's not really "micro-robots" after all; nonetheless, I much prefer nutritional intervention when effective.

[fasteo]

This is also my experience and if you want to get as much mk-4 and mk-7 as possible from diet, aged cheese (especially french münster cheese) and beef liver are an excellent source

[tmoertel]

Natto, a traditional Japanese dish made of fermented soybeans, is especially rich in mk-7. It's the result of an alkaline fermentation process, which makes it initially challenging to Western palates more familiar with the tangy acidic fermentation processes used to make "half-sour" pickles, sauerkraut, and kombucha.

I've tried natto, and it does take some getting used to. Fortunately, a small amount is all you need.

According to Chris Masterjohn, "the foods that are richest in K2 are natto and goose liver, both of which may be difficult-to-acquire tastes. Natto is a fermented soy food popular in eastern Japan. The source of K2 is the bacteria used in the fermentation, not the soy beans. As a result, any vegetable fermented with natto bacteria should be rich in K2. For example, 100 grams of traditional natto contains just under 950 μg, while 100 grams of natto made from black beans contains almost 800 μg. The value for black bean natto is a little lower than that for traditional natto, but both values are phenomenally high. Simply adding 18 grams of natto (about two-thirds of an ounce) to your diet each day would give you 200 μg, and just two ounces of goose liver would provide the same benefit."

Source: https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/blog/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-...

[roel_v]

Did you research the product more at the time? Is it just a matter of googling 'vitamin k2' and buying from the first reputable source? How did you notice that plaque came off when brushing?

[theprotocol]

I've been a reader of health and nutritional science for many years. Yes, I researched vitamin K2 before taking it. No, I am not into random bro-science. I am highly objective and have been able to achieve good results with various nutritional interventions, for several deficiency-related conditions.

The reason I started taking it was not dental plaque, but because my diet had few sources of vitamin K2 (due to diagnosed digestive issues) and the scientific consensus was that it is a valuable nutrient that occurs in diets correlated with reduced cardiac and other disease. I understand that correlation is not causation, but it is plausible that adding something missing in my diet could produce a benefit, and my mission was to correct deficiencies. It is, after all, a nutrient found in common foods.

I had read the claims about its effects on plaque incidentally to my research, but did not consider them factual because this effect had not been studied to my knowledge.

Several hours after taking K2, my teeth would start to feel a bit smoother. About a week and a half later, bits of plaque would start coming off my teeth when I brushed them. To answer your question, you can't not notice it. It's a chunk of solid white gunk that I couldn't previously remove from my teeth that has now become detached.

After a year or so I neglected supplementation with vitamin K2. The plaque eventually returned, albeit very slowly. Upon resuming vitamin K2, it would again dissolve.

I understand your skepticism with regard to n=1 vs. scientific theory, but I am a pragmatic person. I have been able to repeat this, and I can confirm it works for me. To put theory over practice when the reality of it stared me in the face would have been fallacious.

[amluto]

I can falsify your description just by reading it. Plaque is a soft goo. You’re probably describing tartar, aka calculus.

Maybe vitamin K2 helps you remove tartar. Maybe it doesn’t. Go to the dentist regardless — the dentist is about a lot more than removing tartar.

[theprotocol]

- Indeed, it's tartar. I admit to having used the term loosely in my writing, because tartar is hardened plaque.

- Nowhere have I said I never went to the dentist. I just have no need to go for cleaning every 5-6 months anymore, whereas I used to be obligated because the tartar was so bad. Whenever I do go for a checkup, the dentist confirms there is no tartar. When I stopped needing cleaning he asked me what I had changed, and I mentioned vitamin K2. He wasn't aware of its dental benefits, but has since looked it up so he knows what I've been doing.

edit: Fixed for accuracy. Fine, I accept that plaque has not yet become tartar. You are 100% correct with regard to the semantical accuracy of my usage of the word "plaque" instead of tartar, but you have not falsified anything.

edit #2: Removed unnecessarily defensive parts.

[roel_v]

Oh I'm not skeptical, I don't know anything about this - I asked to learn if you had any more advise when it comes to buying the product, what to look out for, what to combine it with or not, and how to 'measure' or at least tell if it works.

[theprotocol]

I understand. I think if you or someone else were skeptical, they'd probably be right to be. But you'd be surprised how far you can get using heuristics and experimentation with low-risk nutritional products to determine if they are beneficial or not, although any results achieved this way are understandably not very convincing to an external observer.

I think a good heuristic is if something is a very common nutritional element, then it's likely safe. Vitamin K2 in its MK-4 form is found in the cheese and meat products produced by grass-fed animals (think Netherlands, France...), while its MK-7 form can be found in certain plant-based products fermented with B. subtilis (Natto). People eat high-K2 diets around the world. It was certainly not going to kill me to try it out at a dose not exceeding what you can get from food (e.g. Natto can have 1000mcg of K2 MK-7 in a single serving!).

I also try not to take most supplements every day, because the idea is simply to top off levels of things I'm deficient in, plus to give the body some time to eliminate the supplement after using it, which reduces toxicity risks even further (turnover is an important factor), and also reduces the risks of forming a dependency (for example, I don't take taurine supplements every day, in case the body's own taurine production would get suppressed).

edit: "what to combine it with or not,"

It complements vitamin D, magnesium and calcium. I discuss this briefly in another post in this comment tree.

[roel_v]

While I don't 'believe' every bit of bro-science I hear (as in, take all claims at face value), let's just say that I'm not very worried about overdosing most supplements and I rather try things out than spending hours upon hours reading about things I don't really understand anyway, and of which there is no scientific consensus :) Just to say, no need to convince me to try something like this :)

I just ordered a combined MK-4/MK-7 supplement, and added some vitamin D3 as well as it seems to be a good combination, so fingers crossed that I can tell my dentist the next time I go how well it works :) (for years she's been lecturing me time and time again how I should brush better, despite brushing at least 2 times a day and flossing consistently. I think she just doesn't believe me that I actually do those things).

[sunstone]

I've a similar result with gout and vitamin D (2000iu per day). Works for me might not work for you.

[agumonkey]

what's the process at play between K2 and plaque ?

[theprotocol]

I'm not aware of any research that establishes how it affects dental plaque, but there is research that suggests it dissolves arterial plaque, which is, in part, made of calcium (hence the cardiac calficiation score), and there is sufficient information overall to formulate a hypothesis on why it would work for dental plaque.

The general effect of vitamin K2 is connected with vitamin D, calcium and magnesium. Vitamin D upregulates calcium utilization, and has been shown to cause conditions of excess calcium e.g. hypercalcemia when cofactors are not present (e.g. magnesium or vitamin K2 deficiency).

While magnesium has a modulating effect on calcium absorption and utilization, vitamin K2 has a stronger effect whereby it causes calcium to be pulled out of inappropriate places (arteries, and apparently teeth) and moved towards appropriate places (bone and other tissues).

Dental tartar typically consists of biofilms made in part with calcium that shield the bacteria from the immune system (consider the term "dental calculus," which has the connotation of calcification). Presumably, vitamin K2 pulls the calcium from the biofilm, which causes it to collapse.

[whycombagator]

For buying supplements I'd look at something from Jarrow, Solaray, or Now (ordered based on my preferences).

For researching supplements take a look at Examine.com

[bigmit37]

I’m reading about vitamin K2 now. It seems like dairy products have a lot of vitamin K2 which is pretty common in Western diet. So wouldn’t they already reap the benefits?

It also promotes blood clotting, which is a bad think for heart patients no? Don’t asprin and blood thinners try to prevent blood clotting?

[simonebrunozzi]

Thanks for sharing your results.

How did you find out about vitamin K2 and its effects on dental plaque in the first place?

[theprotocol]

I love reading about nutrition so I just happened to read several articles about K2 which prompted me to look at the relevant research. K2 is pretty big in ketogenic circles, so there's quite a bit of content written about it, although I do not subscribe to ketogenic diet theory at all.

Part of my research involves reading impressions and reviews posted online. I take it all with a grain of salt, of course, but as long as you label it as low quality data, it still has value. Sometimes it matches up with research. In the case of the effect on dental plaque, I could not find any research backing it up, so I discarded it as a fact but I was still aware of it; later, when I observed the benefit in my own experience, knowing that others reported the same thing helped me determine that it was in fact the K2 that did it (and then I knew to re-test K2 to confirm it).

[winchling]

In my case K2 even seemed to prevent customary tea stains from forming.

[e40]

Can you give details of the product you used?

[theprotocol]

I personally use a product called Doctor's Hope MK4+MK7.

Disclaimer: I do not advise anyone to take this. I'm just reporting on my own experience.

I am not affiliated with anything related to healthcare or nutrition. I am just a software developer.

edit: I also don't take this that frequently anymore. I take it once a week only, with a meal (K2 is fat soluble). If I take it too frequently, it gives me some digestive discomfort.