[MegaButts]

I'll be the first to admit that as a whole, Jira is poorly used. That said, it's surprisingly powerful software. It's just that nobody takes the time to learn how to use it properly. Think of how shitty your first massive OOP language project was. Think of how different coding schemas and practices are between companies. Now realize that over the years, better and best practices have started to be established. Obviously mastering Jira isn't the same as mastering C++, but it actually is a skill that takes months or even years to develop. So it sounds like what you're really complaining about is that the Jira admins and program managers at your company are just not good at their job.

I think it should take approximately 5 seconds for an engineer to progress their tickets. And generally speaking, engineers shouldn't be cloning tickets in Jira without training first (even then I would discourage it, but I don't have enough context). Jira isn't user friendly but neither is C++. Once people experience a well run Jira shop (I think most people have just never seen it because in my experience it's shockingly rare) they realize it's actually useful. The problem is the people in charge of Jira usually suck. And that's a much harder problem to fix.

[grey-area]

So it sounds like what you're really complaining about is that the Jira admins and program managers at your company are just not good at their job...The problem is the people in charge of Jira usually suck. And that's a much harder problem to fix.

Or perhaps the problem is that Jira gives people too much rope to hang themselves with.

It should not be possible to make the experience of users sub-par by 'holding it wrong', and it should not take months or years to learn to use a project management tool IMO - the project should be over by then! Tools like Jira should get out of the way, not get in the way of the real work.

[MegaButts]

> Or perhaps the problem is that Jira gives people too much rope to hang themselves with.

This is like complaining that C (or assembly, or VHDL) is too complicated, and we should all use easier languages like Java, Python, and Ruby.

>It should not be possible to make the experience of users sub-par by 'holding it wrong', and it should not take months or years to learn to use a project management tool IMO - the project should be over by then!

It should not be possible for engineers to do this, which is why the Jira admins should be to blame for setting up a shitty Jira environment. And how long it takes to learn Jira is irrelevant to engineers because you're never supposed to have to learn Jira beyond "move your tickets to done when you're done." How long should it take to learn C++, or Kubernetes, or TensorRT? Do we say those are all a waste of time as well because engineers need to set aside time learning a new language/technology/tool in order to help them do their jobs?

> Tools like Jira should get out of the way, not get in the way of the real work.

I agree. The problem is it sounds like you're assuming I think engineers should learn Jira. Engineers should not spend more than a few minutes a day "dealing" with Jira, on average (ideally no more than 30 seconds, but that's a bit optimistic at a real company). If you spend more than a few minutes a day struggling with Jira, you should bitch to whoever is in charge of Jira. But if you really believe that 15 minutes a week of your time in order for the organization to function at much high levels is a waste of your efforts, then perhaps you should set out to redefine project management. I assure you, there is a shitload of money to be made if you think you can do it better.

[grey-area]

If you spend more than a few minutes a day struggling with Jira, you should bitch to whoever is in charge of Jira. But if you really believe that 15 minutes a week of your time

This doesn't reflect my experience at all as a developer in small teams.

I spend quite a lot of time in the issue tracker - it is one of the main ways (along with email and conversations) that I interact with other team members and track work in the team. I can't imagine any situation where developers would spend just 15 minutes a week in an issue tracker and be able to do their job effectively, even junior devs should be spending more time than that responding to feedback and explaining what they have done, scope changes, what to test etc etc.

Creating software is not all writing code - much of it is thinking and interacting with other people, before you even start writing code, and then iterating fast on what you have written, gathering feedback along the way. An issue tracker is one of the tools used to do that.

So the tools are important, and Jira gets almost everything wrong in my view.

[MegaButts]

I'm not saying you shouldn't spend more than 15 minutes a week documenting, discussing, and diagnosing bugs and developing features. I'm saying you shouldn't spend more than a few minutes a day having to wrangle Jira. If you want to find a bug that's relevant to you, it should literally take 1 second for you to load the page that tells you your sprint and backlog and start looking at it. All of this should be managed by a program manager. You shouldn't have to repeat anything from GitHub. You shouldn't have to go digging for bugs to work on. You shouldn't need to go looking for documentation. All of these things are supposed to be done by someone else.

> Jira gets almost everything wrong in my view.

What specifically would you like to be different?

[ergothus]

> Jira isn't user friendly but neither is C++

I can accept this. But I've chosen to be a programmer - project management tools are a necessary evil, not something I enjoy. Expecting me to put in the effort to master it they way I do my primary tools is doomed to frustration.

I dont' expect end users to program...and I'm the end user of Jira.

[spullara]

I think they are saying the the people setting up Jira for your use failed to master the tool, not that the end users like yourself need to do that.

[ska]

Jira projects massively benefit from a PM who is an expert user, or another expert user involved in care-and-feeding of the projects, in my experience. Just throwing a bunch of developers at it and hoping ... doesn't lead to a good time.

[clairity]

yes, i've set up jira for a few teams (as a pm), and developers, designers, and other users generally have been surprised at how low-friction jira can be.

custom workflows can add automated state management and notifications where appropriate for your dev practices without restricting what you can do. then a little light process on top (who does what with issues in which states, i.e., assuming ownership by the team) glues it all together.