[davidj]

Vaccines do cause autism. Here is a peer reviewed paper in the journal of Toxicological and Environmental Chemistry, the abstract:

Mitochondrial dysfunction, impaired oxidative-reduction activity, degeneration, and death in human neuronal and fetal cells induced by low-level exposure to thimerosal and other metal compounds Authors: D. A. Geiera; P. G. Kingb; M. R. Geierc

Abstract Thimerosal (ethylmercurithiosalicylic acid), an ethylmercury (EtHg)-releasing compound (49.55% mercury (Hg)), was used in a range of medical products for more than 70 years. Of particular recent concern, routine administering of Thimerosal-containing biologics/childhood vaccines have become significant sources of Hg exposure for some fetuses/infants. This study was undertaken to investigate cellular damage among in vitro human neuronal (SH-SY-5Y neuroblastoma and 1321N1 astrocytoma) and fetal (nontransformed) model systems using cell vitality assays and microscope-based digital image capture techniques to assess potential damage induced by Thimerosal and other metal compounds (aluminum (Al) sulfate, lead (Pb)(II) acetate, methylmercury (MeHg) hydroxide, and mercury (Hg)(II) chloride) where the cation was reported to exert adverse effects on developing cells. Thimerosal-associated cellular damage was also evaluated for similarity to pathophysiological findings observed in patients diagnosed with autistic disorders (ADs). Thimerosal-induced cellular damage as evidenced by concentration- and time-dependent mitochondrial damage, reduced oxidative-reduction activity, cellular degeneration, and cell death in the in vitro human neuronal and fetal model systems studied. Thimerosal at low nanomolar (nM) concentrations induced significant cellular toxicity in human neuronal and fetal cells. Thimerosal-induced cytoxicity is similar to that observed in AD pathophysiologic studies. Thimerosal was found to be significantly more toxic than the other metal compounds examined. Future studies need to be conducted to evaluate additional mechanisms underlying Thimerosal-induced cellular damage and assess potential co-exposures to other compounds that may increase or decrease Thimerosal-mediated toxicity. Keywords: autism; glial; lead; mercury; mercuric; neurodevelopmental

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a910652305~...

The PDF of the paper is on the page.

This is a peer reviewed article.

Here is another one:

"Vaccines May Cause Brain Changes Found in Autism" - Journal Acta Neurobiologiae Experimentalis 2010

http://www.autismny.com/2/post/2010/08/vaccines-may-cause-br...

Nether of these papers were written by Wakefield. Just because we have a bad scientist doesn't mean the science is flawed.

In fact, the "vaccine doesn't cause autism" scientist have been caught creating fruad as well: Scientist who "debunked mercury vaccines" caught in fraud, steals $2 Million, skips town A Danish scientist who was a key researcher in two studies that purport to show that mercury used in vaccines and the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine do not cause autism is believed to have used forged documents to steal $2 million from Aarhus University in Denmark according to reports in the Copenenhagen Post Online and a statement from Aarhus University.

Poul Thorsen, MD PhD, headed up a research unit at Aarhus University that was hired by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to prepare a series of studies that would exonerate thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative and adjuvant used in vaccines, and the MMR vaccine from any role in causing autism. The veracity of the two studies he co-authored is now in doubt.

These studies formed the foundation for the conclusions of several Institute of Medicine reports that claimed that it was highly unlikely that thimerosal or MMR were implicated in autism.

In a statement Aarhus University officials said that believe Thorsen forged documents supposedly from the CDC to obtain the release of $2 million from the University. Thorsen resigned abruptly in March 2009 and left Denmark. Since then Thorsen has held several jobs in the US, first at Emory University in Atlanta and then at Drexel University in Philadelphia. Documents show that as late as January 22, 2009. Thorsen was employed at Drexel. Any reference to Poulsen has now been deleted from the Drexel website. http://info-wars.org/2010/03/11/researcher-who-said-mercury-...

[ceejayoz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Geier#Controversies

http://www.casewatch.org/civil/geier.shtml

> Dr. Geier, who is a geneticist and an obstetrician, is not qualified to give a neurological diagnosis.

> Dr Geier's testimony is not reliable, or grounded in scientific methodology and procedure. His testimony is merely subjective belief and unsupported speculation.

> Because Dr. Geier has made a profession of testifying in matters to which his professional background (obstetrics, genetics) is unrelated, his testimony is of limited value to the court.

And that's a court order.

[klondikered]

Your argument that "vaccines cause autism" has huge problems, not the least of which are thimerosal-free vaccines over the last decade.

In addition, the authors of the first study you cited appear to be involved in vaccine litigation and in a business that purports to treat autism by "chelation therapy" and would thus seem to have a vested interest in research findings that show heavy metals cause pathology.

Your second link doesn't go to a paper - you linked to some anti-vaccine website which itself doesn't link to a paper.

There actually is a paper in JANE here:

http://www.ane.pl/pdf/7020.pdf

You can read the paper for yourself - but I am personally not at all impressed by an N=16, with N=3 in the control group. Complete MRI data in this study were obtained on N=9 in the treatment group, and only N=2 in the control group.

Another discussion of the posters that preceded this second paper's publication can be found at:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=100 http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1989

and the second paper itself at:

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/new-paper-vaccines-cause-auti...

You rather carefully chose to note that neither paper was "written" by Wakefield. However, the authors of the second paper noted that Wakefield reviewed their paper and actually helped design their study:

"We thank Drs. Saverio Capuano and Mario Rodriguez for veterinary assistance; and Dr. David Atwood, Carrie Redinger, Dave McFarland, Amanda Dettmer, Steven Kendro, Nicole DeBlasio, Melanie O’Malley and Megan Rufle for technical support. Special thanks to Dr. Andrew Wakefield for assistance with study design and for critical review of this manuscript; and to Troy and Charlie Ball and Robert Sawyer. This work was supported by the Johnson Family, SafeMinds, The Ted Lindsay Foundation, the Autism Research Institute, the Greater Milwaukee Foundation, the late Liz Birt, David and Cindy Emminger, Sandy McInnis, and Elyse Roberts. Prior to 2005, Carol Stott was involved in vaccine litigation."

Papers aside, some anti-vaccine folk seem to have a great deal of emotion invested in the issue:

http://briandeer.com/mmr/carol-stott.htm

[hartror]

May I suggest a couple of links to some in depth analysis of these studies by scientists in a form the layman can understand? Links about researchers stealing money from their university do not add to your cause as it has no bearing on whether or not a particular immunizations are more dangerous than the disease they prevent.

Something along the lines of this but from the opposing viewpoint: http://sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/more-ev...

And to address your concerns re Thimerosal. Apart from the fact the general scientific consensus is it isn't dangerous it was removed from almost all vaccines around 2001. For more information: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/Questions...

[davidj]

Basically the first paper states, from what I can understand, "Some people are born with a genetic defect in their cells, specifically in the mitochondria part of the cell. When these people are injected with Thimerosal, they get autism. Others don't." My proposed solution: Check to see if the kid has this genetic defect, and if so, don't inject them with mercury, inject them with the mercury free vaccine and they will be fine.

I'm not anti-vaccine at all, just anti-mercury in the vaccine. Also they did not remove Thimerosal from vaccines. In fact, the swine flu shot had Thimersal and if you remember, children and pregnant women were encourage to take it first. This caused a 700% increase in miscarriages. http://hubpages.com/hub/thirmerosal_in_vaccines

[hartror]

Also when Thimerosal was removed from most of the vaccines in 2001 it had no affect on Autism rates. This was pretty much the last nail in the coffin for that hypothesis, yet the meme continues.

[ceejayoz]

I figure it's like the "Bill Gates will send you $20 for every person you forward this to" chain e-mails.

[originalgeek]

From 2007:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.881:

(5) Considerable progress has been made in reducing mercury exposures from childhood vaccines, yet 8 years after the July 1999 statement, thimerosal remains in several nonroutinely administered childhood vaccines and many pediatric and adult influenza vaccines.

(6) There is no law or regulation to prohibit the reintroduction of thimerosal into any products from which it has been removed, leaving open the possibility that it may be reintroduced at some point in the future in new vaccines or vaccines from which it has already been removed.

[hartror]

So pretty much what you are saying is backing up what I have said. If thimerosal and other mercury based were responsible for autism then we should see a drop in diagnosis rates relative to the decrease in the use of thimerosal.

As there has been none there is no like, causal or otherwise.

But please keep going, this is almost as fun as playing Battlefield . . .

[originalgeek]

Let me translate for you. It says there was no law forbidding the use of Thimerosal, and also it says plainly that Congress found in 2007 that some vaccines still contained it. Thus, your statement that it was "eliminated in 2001" is false.

[davidj]

Thimerosal may have been removed from vaccines in 2001/2003, but because it was used as a preservative, vaccines made before then were not taken off the shelf and recalled and still used! According to this link below some up until 2007. Then, the swine flu had Thimerosal which was given to children as well.

"One point that was repeatedly stated was that except for the flu shot, all vaccines that have been offered to parents since 2003 have been thimerosal free. This is not the case.

Because parents in the autism community are very concerned about the prospect of their children getting mercury in their vaccines, many of them routinely ask to see the packaging before their child gets a shot. What some parents are finding is that vaccines with the full 25 micrograms of mercury are still being distributed in doctors offices, some with an expiration date of 2007."

http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2005/08/still-finding...

[hartror]

So assuming that is relevant (I don't doubt some doctor still had medicines on the shelf in 2005 (date on post) from 2001 but at what rates your comment does not state) around now we should be already seeing a large drop in autism rates since the shelf life of the older medicines has expired? As there has not been a corresponding drop at all I hold that the autism caused by mercury in vaccines lobby is barking up the wrong tree.

Edit. didn't downvote you btw, did up vote after the downvote as your comment is fair and contributes to the debate. :(

[davidj]

The real question is, red pill or blue? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te6qG4yn-Ps

[hartror]

Some of the H1N1 vaccines contained Thimerosal none of them intended for pregnant women or children.

Also the figure of 700% increase in miscarriages alone doesn't actually prove anything on its own, a virulent disease was also abroad at the time. A detailed study of the medical histories of the women who had miscarriages during 08/09/10 would be needed to establish what the cause of the increase was (and I hope is being done?).

[neworbit]

Incorrect. The H1N1 vaccine given to children and pregnant women explicitly did not have Thimerosal due to exactly this sort of concern.

[RP_Joe]

Read the inserts. There on the net. It contains Themerosal.

[neworbit]

You are not paying attention. The single-dose versions that were targeted at administration to children explicitly do not. The nasal inhalation version that was targeted for pregnant women explicitly does not. The multi-dose vials are the ones that contain Thimerosal, and those are explicitly NOT for pregnant women nor young children.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/expert.q.a/11/02/h1n1.thimero...

[bm98]

You are incorrect: In the US, two 2009 H1N1 vaccines distributed in multi-dose vials were approved for children >= 6 months. See:

http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/dosage.htm#table1

[RP_Joe]

"Thimerosal, a mercury derivative, is not used in the manufacturing process for the single dose presentations; therefore these products contain no preservative. The multi-dose presentation contains thimerosal, added as a preservative; each 0.5 mL dose contains 24.5 mcg of mercury. " From: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines....

[electromagnetic]

Well your latter link is a study based on primates, to which diseases and vaccines have markedly different reactions, so without further information is wholly irrelevant to the debate. Especially considering the fact that measles testing on Rhesus Macaques (IIRC the most accurate measure for measles to humans) has to use specially selected strains or all data is irrelevant due to the monkeys immune system responding wholly different from the human immune system. What assurances are there that the test on these vaccines was even controlled in such a way to ensure the right strains of vaccines were used.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/story_print.html?id=2408084&#...

So riddle me this. Why did a peer reviewed Polish Study find that the MMR vaccine actually showed decreased autism rates over a standard measles vaccination, when the anti-vaccination groups constantly talk about 'vaccine overload'. A triple vaccine should seriously be harder on the system than a single, so why is the evidence suggesting it is either wholly irrelevant or actually beneficial by decreasing autism rates?

Autism-vaccination link researches have the god awful stench that cold fusion and perpetual motion physicists had several decades ago. The original evidence was wholly and undeniably fabricated, but you're posting links to articles that tout they're proving Wakefield right... I'm sorry but all they're showing is that they're producing results that show an unintentional bias because they obviously care that they prove Wakefield right.

You don't have good science until a scientist does it that is happy whether or not he is right or wrong. The anti-vaccination scientists are consistently producing bad science and are consistently bad scientists.

[ryanwaggoner]

Don't just vote him down, folks...he's posting links and support for his position. Surely someone on HN is knowledgeable enough on this subject to respond with something more detailed than clicking a down arrow...

[nl]

It's pretty clear this is a troll account (ie, one that exists to post controversial statements in order to cause grief). Here are some examples:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1782355

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1935416

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1994504

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2041013

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2027532

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2018434

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2018405

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1881991

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1935387

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1919731

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1914963

I think the best response here is to down-vote and not engage beyond the sensible rebuttal that has been posted.

[davidj]

those posts are my honest replies. I don't invoke name calling and try to backup everything with sources. I do get downvoted a lot here, I do not have multiple accounts or use my account "as a troll account." My postings are sincere and I honestly have a dissenting viewpoint in general both online and offline. My friends often remark that I like debates. If you disagree with me, let me know. My philosophy in debating is that I either abandon my argument by learning new facts about what I was wrong about, or my argument stands. I live in the Portland Oregon area and if you would like to meet me for a beer I can attest to this. Thanks

[nl]

Debate is pointless if you ignore contrary evidence.

For example, it's pretty clear that you are anti-vaccine. It's fine to hold that opinion, but as I'm sure you've seen the overwhelming evidence against your point of view I don't see any need in re-hashing the arguments.

In cases like this you may not be consciously trolling, but in my view arguing a dissenting view in the face of such overwhelming evidence exhibits the same damaging behavior patterns that a troll engages in. Given that, I think the appropriate response is exactly the same as the response to a troll, ie: a perfunctory link to counter evidence on Wikipedia (for the sake of casual readers), and a downvote.

[hartror]

I down voted because none of those links add to the debate in a useful manner. See my reply.

[ryanwaggoner]

I agree that some analysis for laypeople would be useful, but that's part of what I love about HN: an expert in this topic might come along soon and offer such an analysis. I think having a voice of dissent that offers something other than hyperbole and unsupported hand-waving is useful, and shouldn't be discouraged.

[mechanical_fish]

Whereas I think that anyone who drags Thimerosal into this debate -- roughly a decade after it was removed from vaccines in response to mass hysteria -- deserves to have a bucket of water poured over their head and sent home.

Just because an argument isn't made out of unsupported hand-waving doesn't mean that it isn't recycled garbage. Citations and glib technical language can be copied and pasted just as easily as mindless rants.

It is not enough to hold debates. One must also have the guts to draw conclusions.

Meanwhile, what's conspicuously missing from this particular cloud of chaff is a concise summary of the most recent epidemiological data. Should we not have plenty of that by now? Thanks to Wakefield, we have conducted an "experiment" over the last decade or so: Hysteria is up, and the vaccination rate is down. As a result, the incidence of preventable disease is measurably higher. Surely, if there is a correlation between autism and vaccination, the autism rate must now be significantly lower in these new unvaccinated populations? Or can we at least try to establish how many more kids have to suffer or die before we can draw that conclusion?

[RP_Joe]

Read the inserts to the vaccine. "Thimerosal, a mercury derivative, is not used in the manufacturing process for the single dose presentations; therefore these products contain no preservative. The multi-dose presentation contains thimerosal, added as a preservative; each 0.5 mL dose contains 24.5 mcg of mercury. " From: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines...

[hartror]

Right I will come right out and say what I implied in my full reply to the "dissenter". What they posted is hyperbol and unsupported hand-waving.

None of what they posted is useful in making a decision one way or another on the subject.

I can't understand the title of the study they posted let alone the contents and I have never heard of the journal which maybe is the preeminent publication of its field or a dirty rag which the publisher's mate "peer reviews". I have no way of knowing from the comment and posting the abstract provides nothing.

The second one is a blog of an Autism organisation in New York that doesn't link to anything that I can use to gauge its authority.

And the third is talking about a single scientist in the opposing side of the debate (there is only one person refuting these claims? Really?) who was caught with his hand in the till. Hardly proof or otherwise on the debate at hand.

So I stand by my downvote.

[bugsy]

Thanks very much for those sources.

[RP_Joe]

People here don't want to believe this. They will still vaccinate their kids and worse will be in favor of forced vaccinations. They trust the government research. They trust the doctors and the pharmaceutical companies. This stuff is just a bunch of nonsense by troublemakers.

[electromagnetic]

Sorry, but you clearly have no clue what people here want and don't want to believe.

I generally see a more hesitant view here on HN than anywhere else when it comes to doctors and pharma companies, generally because their advice and drugs are not highly scrutinised or peer reviewed.

However, what I see a lot of here on HN is basic common sense. Smallpox killed ~400 million people in the 20th century, that's not even accurate statistics as we largely wiped out the disease in the latter decades. It was also the cause of 1/3 of all blindnesses.

I fail to see how "not wanting to believe" vaccinations 'causing' autism is even relevant to the debate. I don't even see how a proven causal link between vaccinations and autism would even be relevant to the vaccination debate. I god honest don't give a fuck if vaccinations cause autism unless it's >1/2 because my child's risk of dying in an unvaccinated world is about 50/50 if I'm lucky.

IIRC measles mortality in the US currently stands at 4 in 100 million because of vaccinations. Before the vaccine was licensed measles cases averaged around 450 thousand per year. Within five years of the vaccine being licensed the number of reported cases dropped to ~20 thousand (note: a 22-fold drop in cases), when the second dose was recommended the cases dropped to the current baseline of a statistical zero thousand within five years.

This is equivalent to 68-thousand lives saved per year for the measles vaccination.

If you want to live without vaccination, sure go ahead. However I think you should be forced to pay for the 19 other vaccinations it requires to keep herd immunity that keeps people like you safe from deadly diseases like measles.

[ryanwaggoner]

Unlike the comment that you're responding to, your comment adds no value whatsoever and your straw-man position is as worthless as the one you're railing against. You sound like a person who finds it unconceivable that someone could have looked at the evidence and come to a different conclusion, so you assume they must be blind.