[jmcqk6]

>I can't imagine why on Earth anyone would want to bring such a personal topic into the workplace. As a matter of fact, it kind of disturbs the integrity of a professional environment to have these kinds of discussions during working hours anyway

A lot of times, it isn't their choice. I'm glad that you have never felt discriminated against, but just because that's your experience, doesn't mean everyone else's experiences are the same.

Most of my friends are members of the LGBT community, though I am not. I know for them, they want nothing else than to just be who they are, do their work, and go home at the end of the day. But they have been denied that over and over again because they have been forced to work with assholes.

Yeah, society is becoming more accepting, and that's great. I think that makes the negative experiences even worse.

[SpicyLemonZest]

And I'm sympathetic to your friends' struggles, but I don't think it helps them to establish a norm that you must always talk about social issues of the day at work. Sometimes people will be having a welcoming discussion about the most recent antidiscrimination law, and sometimes they'll be having an incredibly non-welcoming discussion about Jessica Yaniv.

[tracker1]

There is no escape from assholes at any company of even medium size. From the narcissistic architect, to the arrogant sales rep, to the ignorant vegan. It's part of any society.

The problem is, people have been coddled so much and isolated from it to the point that they're unable to cope with it when they experience it. More people need to spend more time pushing themselves into uncomfortable positions instead of averting them. Don't let a temper get the best of you and stay rational. It makes you emotionally/mentally stronger.

[ng12]

I think it's the opposite. Sex, politics, and religion used to be verboten in any professional context. There's good reason for that: you're going to have to get along with people who believe different things than you do, and the best way to do that is to focus on your work instead of your beliefs.

Google created a culture where employees are supposed to personally identify with their beliefs and now they're paying the price.

[tracker1]

I've been in professional workplaces for about 25 years now. Early in my career, I was even in a few offices where I was the only male. You'd be surprised how raunchy office conversation can get when a mostly female office forgets you're there. I've also worked in nearly all male environments and it was similar. IMHO it's not nearly as bad today, people are just more sensitive from my own experience.

The problem is the inability to stay calm and interact with people of differing views.

edit: I find it interesting, I started working in the early 90's at a time when a lot of office environments were shifting mindsets. When smoking/drinking at work was starting to become widely unacceptable, when social interactions between men and women were starting to be widely discouraged. I think a lot of things are better, and a lot of things are worse. But it was never as "professional" as some people seem to think.

[tenpies]

I think one of the major issues, is that if I say "I'm just not into identity politics" the person will be knocking at HR's door in precisely 5 seconds and HR will be scheduling re-education for later in that day.

You cannot just be here to do work these days. You have to be an activist who happens to do work for about an hour per week, but the rest of your day better be spent expressing the approved opinions, genuflecting at the correct people, and consuming the designed propaganda. These companies don't have employees, they have activists who they are too afraid to fire.

[PhasmaFelis]

> The problem is, people have been coddled so much and isolated from it to the point that they're unable to cope with it when they experience it. More people need to spend more time pushing themselves into uncomfortable positions instead of averting them.

I promise you that when LGBT people encounter bigotry at work, the problem is not that they've never been discriminated against before and need more discrimination to toughen them up.

[jmcqk6]

Yes, dealing with assholes is an important life skill, and it takes time to learn.

I don't see how that relates to my point. They have to be dealt with one way or another, I don't think we should just accept their presence as inescapable. Assholes should be confronted, not tolerated as inevitable.

[tracker1]

I'm not saying don't confront them... but that policies aren't necessarily the answer. The answer is actual engagement from a rational perspective.

[lkjhdcba]

Yes LGBT people should dispassionately discuss with homophobic and transphobic folks by rationally engaging them in the marketplace of ideas.

"You know, you think my sexuality is an abomination that should not exist and I will go to hell, but have you ever considered that - hear me out - this could not be the case? Do you have any data to back this up? Aren't you falling into an ad hominem fallacy?"

"Ah right, you have correctly pointed out a gaping hole in my otherwise excellent deductive reasoning. I hereby bow to your argument and am not homophobic anymore."

And once again, the power of rational debate shines through and through.

[johnisgood]

> forced to work with assholes.

Is that so? Where is this slavery taking place exactly?

[ygjb]

Are you really equating someone choosing to remain at a job where they work with assholes to slavery?

Not everyone has the economic freedom or mobility to simply leave a job. Jobs and orgs change over time, so you can go to work one day and find out the new lead for your team is an asshole.

It happens every day to people who don't have the option to leave their job whether it's in an Amazon warehouse, or the top level engineering roles at a FANG company.

It's not even close to being comparable to slavery, but it is still being forced to work with assholes because the leadership team isn't doing a good job of removing assholes from the work environment.

[johnisgood]

What? Everyone has the option to leave, otherwise it is involuntary and IS slavery... if you are making the choice to stay, then it is not forced at all. There is always another option besides making the choice to stay. You are actually not forced to stay.

> Are you really equating someone choosing to remain at a job where they work with assholes to slavery?

No. If you are not allowed to leave, then it is slavery. Look at carefully what you have just said: choosing, indeed, that makes it voluntary, you are NOT FORCED to stay, you CHOSE to stay because of your preferences and whatnot.

Also a reminder: we were talking about "working with assholes", do not come up with scenarios where your future hypothetical individual will have ZERO opportunities, skills, etc. :)

[mensetmanusman]

Your statement is true if your standards are high.

[jmcqk6]

It takes a particularly simplistic view of the world to have a response like this.

For many in the tech world, getting a new job is straight forward, but that is not the norm. It is stressful. It might require moving to a new location. it might require taking a pay cut.

There are many reasons someone might want to stay in a crappy job. One might be it's the only job they can find in their current location (especially outside of tech hubs), and they are tied to their current location for reasons of family or other obligations.

I have a friend who is staying in a shitty job because one of the perks of the job is reduced college tuition for her son, and that's more important to her than being happy at work.

You are a privileged person if you have never experienced something like that. I hope you never do. But please don't assume just because you haven't that no one else has either.

[johnisgood]

You are not forced to work with assholes. Period.

> There are many reasons someone might want to stay in a crappy job.

Many reasons for choosing (or preferring) to stay, I never denied that.

> I have a friend who is staying in a shitty job because one of the perks of the job is reduced college tuition for her son, and that's more important to her than being happy at work.

A choice has been made here. The choice to STAY, and NOT LEAVE. It does not magically make it forced when it was a voluntary decision. Your friend preferred to stay in the shitty job because she valued reduced college tuition for her son more than she did not want to do the job. You said this yourself: "that's more important to her than being happy at work.". Exactly! Where is the "force" here? All I see is preferences and values.

[jmcqk6]

Given an unrelated choice, they have unchosen and unwanted consequences of having to deal with an asshole. Play word games all you want, but the average person understands the meaning here.

They do not want to deal with the asshole. That's what is meant here. Not an analysis of all the history and choices that led to them to this moment in their life. This is not difficult to understand.

I don't know what point you're trying to make. That they should care for their son less so that their life is a little easier? Because that is what it's sounding like. Or maybe you're just being a pedantic asshole yourself.

[johnisgood]

Thank you for calling me an asshole, but this was not necessary.

> That they should care for their son less so that their life is a little easier?

Definitely not. I am not sure how you could conclude that given my posts about choice and preferences. I do not care which choice they make, but they made one over another because they valued that over the other. There is no force here whatsoever, it is all about preferences. If you value your job more (for whatever reasons, e.g. so you can feed your kids) than you dislike assholes, you stay. Some people would rather switch jobs than remain with assholes. Some people would tolerate it. Some people are too lazy to take it to their superiors (or just do not care enough). Of course the list is non-exhaustive, but the point is that neither of them are forced to stay and work with assholes. That is my point, that ultimately you are not really forced to work with assholes. You are free to leave the workplace. You are free to switch. You are free to attempt to resolve the issue. Depending on your workplace, you may be free to join another group. Again, this list is non-exhaustive, too, and to make my point it does not matter. Maybe you could read my other comments on the subject, but in no way am I suggesting what you think I am suggesting. Let me regurgitate, my point is: no one is holding a gun to your head and forces you to work with assholes.

Please re-read this one:

> A choice has been made here. The choice to STAY, and NOT LEAVE. It does not magically make it forced when it was a voluntary decision. Your friend preferred to stay in the shitty job because she valued reduced college tuition for her son more than she did not want to do the job. You said this yourself: "that's more important to her than being happy at work.". Exactly! Where is the "force" here? All I see is preferences and values.

I am not trying to suggest a choice for her, why would I decide for her? I am not trying to decide for her. I am simply making an observation regarding her values, and they are fine! But is she forced to do what she does? No! She made a voluntary decision. There are no mysterious forces.

How about you tell me regarding your example where or what the force is, then we can continue it from there. However, it is going to be difficult, because even you yourself said this: "that's more important to her than being happy at work.". It is exactly what I meant. No one forced her. She made a choice based on her values and preferences. Do you disagree?