[MegaButts]

You don't feel upset about how they were, in my opinion, defrauding you and the driver of the tip money? After I learned about what they were doing with tips I decided not to use them again, and considering how much competition there is I really haven't lost anything of value.

This isn't meant to be a triggering comment. I'm genuinely curious to learn about other people's reactions to DoorDash's former tipping system.

[xenocyon]

Personally: having learned of their scummy practices, I will not be supporting DoorDash or Instacart ever again, regardless of whether they change policy now in response to being exposed.

Why so unforgiving? Because you can't deter unethical behavior by merely asking for a perpetrator to discontinue the unethical behavior if/when exposed. The expected value of a penalty needs to exceed the financial reward of the behavior it is meant to punish. Furthermore, I don't trust companies who are likely to be unethical the moment someone isn't looking.

[milesskorpen]

By their scummy practices, are you referring to their tipping policy?

I'm not sure I fully understand the backlash. Yes, the tipping policy didn't meet people's expectations ... but it seems almost exactly the same s how tipping + wages work for wait staff in restaurants (where restaurants are allowed to pay them less than minimum wage, as long as the difference is offset by tips).

Why are we okay with this policy, which is enshrined in law, for restaurant wait staff but not for delivery drivers?

A reasonable argument is that tips should always go direct to the staff and they should also at least make minimum wage, but that'd represent a huge change from the status quo and people aren't freaking out about how restaurant staff are compensated, so it seems like this hits a different emotional chord for some reason. Maybe it's more evil-seeming coming from a large tech-ish company rather than SMBs?

[xenocyon]

Firstly, restaurants are not allowed to pay "less than minimum wage" in any US state, though some states have two separate minimum wage rates for tipped and untipped employees. (NB: all west coast states in the US have just one minimum wage that applies for all employees, tipped or not.)

But more fundamentally Instacart and Doordash deceived consumers in a way restaurants don't. Say minimum wage for tipped employees is $4, a restaurant pays a $5 wage and I tip $2, I expect that the staff gets the $5 wage and the $2 tip (whether pooled or otherwise). If the restauranteur uses my $2 tip to cut wages below $5, then that would be illegal and outrageous. The minimum wage amount of $4 does not even enter into the calculation in this example, except defining the floor for the restaurant to pay its tipped employees.

[cgriswald]

> Firstly, restaurants are not allowed to pay "less than minimum wage" in any US state, though some states have two separate minimum wage rates for tipped and untipped employees.

This is a difference without distinction. It is the separate minimum wage for tipped employees which allows the restaurant to pay less than the minimum wage. If the tipped employee minimum wage is $A and the untipped employee minimum wage is $B, and the tipped employee earns $C in tips:

The restaurant must pay $A. If $A + $C < $B, the restaurant must pay $B -($C + $A) more so the employee earns $B. Else, the restaurant doesn't have to pay anymore.

That's exactly how DoorDash works. They pay $1 (equivalent to $A), guarantee another amount (equivalent to $B), and if $A + $C < $B, they fill in the difference.

> But more fundamentally Instacart and Doordash deceived consumers in a way restaurants don't.…

How so? They operate exactly as restaurants do in tipped employee minimum wages states in regard to tips.

[Bjartr]

> Why are we okay with this policy, which is enshrined in law, for restaurant wait staff but not for delivery drivers?

Personally, I am not okay with the law. An employer should pay a living wage. That said, I'm biased because I would vastly prefer to avoid the anxiety I feel around figuring out the right amount to tip such that I don't feel scummy nor taken advantage of. I went there to eat some food, not feel anxious.

[advarckcal]

But this tip goes towards minimum wage is illegal in California where all these companies are based.

[lancesells]

I just did the same with Amazon since they have the same tip practices as DoorDash. That and reading about the Ring Alarm system being sold by law enforcement it just put me over the edge.

Can I avoid AWS? No, but I can certainly not spend my own money directly on any of their services.

[maksimum]

Have you been tipping on your AWS bill? Or the package delivery workers? (What does Amazon have to do with this?)

[nvr219]

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[jmeyer2k]

I drove for DoorDash and I absolutely prefer the guaranteed amount with them keeping the tips.

First of all, people tip beforehand so it's not based on quality of service anyway.

Second of all, it makes DoorDash a steady stream of income instead of hoping that you'll be tipped enough. Most people don't tip and if the tip is large enough, you do receive the tip.

[femto113]

I think this wasn't really a bad deal for the drivers, but it was essentially a lie to the consumers: they think tipping will make a difference for the driver, but instead it only makes a difference to DoorDash. What's really needed is a minimum wage that applies to everyone, regardless of employee status.

[dheera]

I just give $0 tips through the DoorDash website (and you have to select $0 TWICE, at both the top and bottom of the checkout page, by the way) and give them tips in cash.

That way DoorDash provides at least a partial matching contribution to my tip instead of eating from my tip.

[anbop]

I don’t have a problem with it although I think it’s good that they changed it. If drivers complain “we’re not getting enough tip” and the company says “OK we guarantee your tips will be at least $5 on this order” that’s the behavior you get. The customer feels ripped off by a program that ostensibly benefited drivers to begin with.

[jamiequint]

They weren't "defrauding the drivers of tip money" they were normalizing the variance in payments across deliveries by not directly paying the drivers tips and instead guaranteeing a minimum payment amount which was above the delivery fee.

Once they modify their system and move to a system where drivers get 100% of the tips the drivers will probably see approximately the same payouts on average, just with higher variance across drivers. Basically what DoorDash was doing is the same as tip-pooling at a restaurant which isn't exactly a controversial practice.

[sanj]

Tip pooling makes sense because a restaurant experience is composed of the work of multiple players in the front/back of the house.

DoorDash drivers don’t rely on other drivers. So why should a good driver compensate for the poor tips of a bad one?

[Dylan16807]

Why do you expect bad delivery drivers to have poorer tips? I've never adjusted a tip based on the quality of the driver, because I can't measure that. Anyone can hand over a bag of food, so the only thing I see is how long they took. But whether they arrive quickly or slowly is probably the kitchen's fault, or luck of overlapping orders. Realistically, I have nothing to rate them on.

[ericmason]

Maybe because the tip has at least as much to do with the customer as it does the driver.

[milesskorpen]

There's not a lot of evidence that tips actually reliably vary in response to quality (easy to Google, but stuff like https://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?refe... ).

Tipping frequently matters more about the tippers mood, the tip-receiver's race and gender, and (of course) order size.

[jamiequint]

This isn't like restaurant tipping where bad service gets 10% and good service gets 25%+ It's mostly bi-modal, drivers frequently don't get tipped at all. In this scenario reducing variance makes sense because (as many other commenters here note) unless the experience is overwhelmingly bad the tip generally has more to do with the receiver of the order rather than the driver.

[aianus]

The entire point of the tipping system is to have a high variance. The promise, but not guarantee, of tips is what is supposed to incentivize better service.

[r1nkgrl]

But in the case of the DoorDash, if you tip using the app, you tip long before you know what the service will be.

It's like walking blindfolded into a restaurant and putting your tip in the hostesses hand before you even see any of the staff, or have any indication of service.

[aianus]

I see, I've never used DoorDash and assumed it was like Uber and UberEats where you tip afterwards.

That's a pretty silly system.

[chipotle_coyote]

That's true, although to be fair, there's only so much a delivery driver can do service-wise compared to a waiter. Your only interaction with the driver is picking up the order. The driver isn't responsible for the time the restaurant takes to get the food to them, and isn't even entirely responsible for the time it takes to get the food from the restaurant to you -- there's traffic, weather, and the possibility that DoorDash demands they batch orders (something I've heard but haven't confirmed). I'm not sure it's fair to hold a third-party delivery driver responsible for the correctness of the order, either, rather than the restaurant.

[dtparr]

It seems like what you're arguing is that delivery drivers should not be a tipped class, but instead just guaranteed a higher rate.

[chipotle_coyote]

Well, my actual thought was more that adjusting tips based on perceived delivery driver performance is somewhat unfair based on all the things beyond the driver's control. (I'm not sure if the downvotes I got are from people who think I was arguing "never tip drivers" and are mad because they think I'm a jerk, or people who realized I was more arguing "don't undertip drivers" and are mad because they think I'm saying undertippers are jerks, and fair, I am.)

Anyway, yes, actually: I think there's a good argument to be made for a higher wage for delivery drivers -- and all waitstaff -- that makes their earnings less dependent on tips. If people want to tip for exceptional service, that's fine, but there are a surprising number of people who treat tips today as if they're only for exceptional service, will cut tips in half or even to zero for things beyond the server's control (e.g., the restaurant will not accept your clearly expired coupon), etc.

[cgriswald]

I entirely disagree.

Things a dasher is responsible for:

1. The correctness of the order. Yes, it's fair to hold them responsible for this, because they have the order and they are at the restaurant. If the order is wrong, they can easily correct it then. If it's wrong at my house, now what? Probably I'm unhappy, even after Door Dash offers me credits

2. Keeping the food in good shape. That includes heat (some dashers use a heat bag), but it also includes keeping soup, chili cheese fries, and other things upright. (All things some dashers have screwed up for me.)

3. Paying attention to notes. I eat my Taco Bell with diablo sauce. Did he include the sauce I asked for in the notes? (Bonus points for including things like napkins and sporks without being asked.)

4. Polite behavior. Most are polite, but some practically throw the food at you and run away.